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D41 Pinion depth

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Rick G View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 Mar. 2017 at 7:59pm
This has been asked previously but never answered as far as I can find. What is the pinion depth to carrier center line supposed to be on a Dana 41? I know the service manual just says to use the tool and corresponding block, but that tool is not in my posession. I just need the pinion depth measurement and possibly the master housing dimension. Anyone know?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2017 at 9:30am
The pinion and ring gear are matched as a set, and as a result no one will be able to measure theirs and give you the answer for yours. They are all different. The pinion depth is changed by shims, and the correct way of doing this is to check the wear pattern on the ring teeth after assembling yours. The different wear patterns are documented as to whether you need to move your pinion in or out by adding or removing shims in order to get the correct wear pattern.

I hope this helps.

Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2017 at 9:49am
Rick- Are you repairing yours or building a spare? ( are you in a hurry?)

I have the Miller kit but never tried to use it,  and probably a blueprint of the assy.


Edited by Joe Friday - 19 Mar. 2017 at 9:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2017 at 2:01pm
Mike,
You are correct about the ring and pinion being a matched set and that the shims set each individual pinion depth to the correct placement based upon the mesh pattern. However, every differential has a established standard pinion depth measurement, i.e. "the starting point" from which the pinion is to be adjusted. Every pinion gear has a measurement etched into it with the proper adjustment in reference to the established pinion depth (e.g. +0.003", -0.002", or like mine, +0.00"). You take the pinion depth measurement, add or subtract the measurement on your individual pinion to get the individual pinion depth for that set. This is for new gear set ups and should work without much, if any, further adjustments. Because there are no "new" D41 gear sets, mine are used and will require further adjustment even after I set the depth to specs.

Keith,
I'm replacing my set with the set I got from Rudy at the FCT last year. I'm trying to finish it today. Looks like it will be trial and error, unfortunately. If you could get measurements from the tool or diagram, I think that would be extremely beneficial to the forum for future reference. With that info, you don't need those special Willys gauge blocks and then you can use regular diff tools.   If I come to any conclusions from my empirical data, I'll post them and we can compare to what you find.

Thx,
Rick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepSaffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2017 at 2:20pm
Right you are, Rick! Thanks for clarifying...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Mar. 2017 at 7:37pm
If you have the original shims, ring and pinion you know the differential housing pinion depth from those numbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 1:04am
Bob,
I don't know if I have original r&p or not. Drive side ring teeth have at least 2 different cupped locations on them indicating lots of incorrect adjustment over the years. I didn't remove the existing pinion depth shims...yet. I was hoping for an easy drop-in without many iterations. I ran out of time this weekend and didn't get it completed. From several iterations with backlash settings thus far, it looks like I will probably have to pull the pinion and remove some shims. Indications are my pinion is too deep. Will continue and update next week as time permits.

Rick
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 6:49pm
Here is a more modern version of the D44 pinion depth tools (dial indicator not shown). I don't know if they will work with early D44s or D41s.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2017 at 12:35am
The arbor discs and arbor can certainly be used on both the D41 and D44 because they both use the exact same carrier bearing races. The gauge block for the D44 probably isn't the same as the D41, however. The D44 pinion depth is supposed to be 2.625" and my measured pinion depth of the gear set I just removed was 2.780" with 0.30" of shims behind the pinion bearing race. What I don't know is how much shim (if any) is considered "standard" or zero.

Interestingly, the replacement pinion, with no other changes except a new National bearing, gave a pinion depth of 2.768". This depth, with backlash settings between 0.005"-0.011", gave contact patterns indicating the pinion was set too deep. That's where I've stopped for now. I will remove 0.010" and see what the pattern looks like.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2017 at 1:41pm
There would be no "standard" pinion shim setting for any Dana Spicer axle. Each housing "pig" has individual characteristics and each took a different set of shims when it left the Dana plant. The pinion depth was determined at the factory with tooling that took into account the variations in machining from one housing to another. With a new ring and pinion set given the variation marks on the button of the pinion it is just a matter of addition and subtraction from the factory tooling setting to determine the pinion depth and it was sent out the door of the Dana factory ready to install.

The unfortunate thing about your install is that someone didn't know what they were doing when they were in the axle last time. They changed the pinion depth from the factory setting by removing or adding shims.

This is why it is so important NOT to change the pinion depth shimming on an axle that is otherwise working properly but just needs the bearings changed out. Just changing the bearings out in an axle will NOT change the shimming used for that axle. All tapered bearings have the same dimensions, so if changed, will not affect the running pattern of the gear set.

Bubba has done a number on your gearset... There are likely two running patterns on the gear teeth. You will have to pick the best of the two and hope it isn't noisy. It is going to take some trial and error to get this gearset where it will run, but I do agree that your pinion is set too close and removing some shims may get a better pattern or at least one that is acceptable.

When I operated my driveline shop back in the 1980's I had the original Dana tooling that it took to set the pinion depth, even if the housing was brought in bare. The tooling was very expensive to purchase, but the process took about 10 minutes to find the pinion depth, so the tooling paid for itself in time saved. I overhauled dozens and dozens of D44F axles and many D60 axles. The tooling did not work for D41 axles or D25 axles unfortunately, so those had to be done trial and error only IF someone had been in them before me. I always pulled a pattern check before a teardown in those cases.

Good luck on your rebuild. Wish I could be there to help! I kind of miss the work...

Edited by SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A - 22 Mar. 2017 at 2:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2017 at 6:00pm
Yes. 2.750

That's 4-5/8 minus the 1-7/8 pinion thickness.

So if you are at 2.768, add another pinion shim of .018


Edited by Joe Friday - 21 Mar. 2017 at 6:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar. 2017 at 1:53pm
Be sure to let us know what you find...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar. 2017 at 6:02pm
After reviewing the manufacturer's drawings, I would agree with you Keith...except the pattern in the pics above indicate the pinion is too deep as it is.  Adding shims is the opposite of what I need to do.  Perhaps I mis-measured the 2.768" (which I doubt) or have a slightly different bearing position than the original.  I have started measuring and documenting.  Haven't had time to install everything back yet.  Will report as I'm able.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Mar. 2017 at 11:06pm
If we're looking at it the same way, adding shims will move the pinion towards the centerline of the carrier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Mar. 2017 at 12:35am
We're on the same page, Keith.  According to the drawings, the measurements of my original pinion and shim set, and the pinion depth of the replacement pinion, I totally agree with you.  All those numbers correlate to adding shims, i.e., moving the pinion closer to the centerline of the carrier.  Problem is, the mesh pattern indicates that the pinion needs to be moved away from the carrier centerline.  I plan to work on this tomorrow afternoon until I get it properly set up.  I will report findings as they develop.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar. 2017 at 7:12pm
Finally finished my ring & pinion installation.  Thought I would report my findings and results.  The answer to my posting question has been confirmed to be 2.750" according to the manufacture's drawing Keith supplied me, as well as my measurements and calculations.

The ring and pinion that I removed from the D41 housing appear to be the original equipment as shipped from factory.  My 1947 CJ2A serial number is 119929.  This places the date of assembly around the last week of May or the first week of June 1947 (best interpolation of the database here on the page).  My ACM number is 109897 and my date tag on my T90A is 5-15-47.  When I got this jeep it was in original condition, except for paint.  It was essentially, unmolested.  All that to say, I believe my ring and pinion was original to this jeep because of the pinion markings as noted below.

It is marked SPICER 17505, which is Spicer's manufacturing number, not Willys' part number.  In another photo you can see the numbers  4  30  47B1, which as I understand it, correlates to date of manufacture; April 30, 1947, shift B, assembly line 1.  That would fit the timeline of my jeep's assemblage of late May/early June 1947.  Etching numbers on the pinion button are 313 (pairing number) and 0 (guessing this is the +0 pinion depth adjustment).  Anyway, on to the findings.




My replacement pinion was etched on the button 336 ++L and +0.  Shank markings had no manufacture company but perhaps the manufacture date  (October 1974?) 10  74 and another stamping of "I" or "H", which I believe notates that this ring and pinion had been serviced at some point. Same markings of "I" or "H" were on the housing gasket surface and bearing caps.


Here are some shots of the original and replacement pinions along with measured differences.  There are some manufacturing differences, but the measurements that affect pinion depth only varied by 0.002".






According to the drawing, the mounting distance (MD) is from the pinion bearing shoulder to the centerline of the ring gear and is noted to be 4.625".  The pinion depth on the drawings is shown to be 2.750" (centerline of ring gear to button on pinion).  The drawings, which were originally dated 11-4-49 and revised several times thru the early 50's, show the pinion head to be 1.875".  My measurements of the two pinions are noted above.  If I subtract 1.870" from the MD, I get 2.755" which is very close to the drawing.  As a side note, the drawings had a notation of measured tolerances (except as where otherwise noted) of +/- 0.010".

Much bigger differences exist in the bearings and races and "pigs" as SE Kansas noted.  This is why there is no standard shim pack for an adjustment to the pinion depth.  I measured old Timken bearings (USA) and races, new Timken races (India), new National bearings (Spain), new Japan Koyo HI CAP bearings, old BOWER races, et. al. and I've noted the dimensional spans below on the pics.







Here's some shots of the install




Here's my final pinion depth measurement taken with my iphone.









I could never really get a good mesh pattern on the drive side teeth.  I ending up leaving the pinion at 2.756" even tho it was etched +0.  All indications kept telling me to increase pinion depth, and I did, but the pattern never really climbed up towards the heel of the tooth so I just stopped.  I set my backlash to 0.005".  This required 0.045" on each side of the carrier.  I really needed 0.005" more shims on the passenger side to "tighten" up the carrier, but I didn't like to pound the carrier in for each iteration of new gear settings.

I buttoned it all back up, filled 'er with oil and test drove it.  Beautiful music (or lack thereof) to my ears.  Very quiet and very responsive now.  Even tho I didn't get the pattern I was shooting for on the teeth, it's quiet and I like it!

Rick

P.S.  here's some pics of the "I" or "H" stamped on MY differential housing, bearing caps, and the replacement pinion from somewhere in Colorado.  Was this a common stamping for all service garages?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar. 2017 at 7:25pm
The stamped letters were done at the factory to indicate which bearing cap is installed on which side and which way is up. Just match the orientation of the letters on the cap and the housing and it will be correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Mar. 2017 at 7:40pm
Rick: All Dana Spicer housings should have reference marks on them when they left the factory. What you should have is the letter "H" stamped on the drivers side of the "pig" and a matching "H" on the differential bearing cap adjacent to the housing mark. On the passenger side of the "pig", you should have a "H" stamped into the housing and a matching sideways "H" stamped on the differential bearing cap adjacent to it. This system insures that the original orientation of the caps and the side that each cap left the factory can be duplicated by a repair mechanic. The "Pig" is align-bored similar to an engine block and the caps are meant to be installed in only one orientation. The Dana Spicer factory (also located in Toledo) used any letter of the alphabet to stamp the housings and bearing caps except "O". The actual letter used had no significance.

It would appear that your bearing caps are installed incorrectly from your picture. This may or may not cause a problem, but I would advise changing it to the correct way as a differential bearing cap that is installed wrong could cause premature wear if the differential bearings.
The upright H's should be next to each other and the sideways H's should be next to each other.

Hope this helped.

Edited by SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A - 25 Mar. 2017 at 7:46pm
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