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Dana 25/41 "Setup Bearings"

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LesBerg View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Apr. 2017 at 1:55pm
Does anyone know of a way to make a set up differential setup bearings for those of us not blessed with a lathe?
I want to put together a set of pinion and carrier bearings for setting up Dana 25 axles, and D41s if I get that far.
For those of you unfamiliar with 'setup bearings', they are cones and races that are machined to slip easily on the various parts. They are used solely for figuring out shim packs for the pinion and carrier.
Once you know the shims your setup needs, you assemble the unit with standard press-fit bearings.
If we can get a set of these put together, I'd propose offering them up to the community the same way as the grill welt rivet pliers.
So if anyone has a nifty idea on how I can chuck them up in a drill press or something, I'm all ears.
Thanks,
Les
1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
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rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr. 2017 at 3:40pm
The inner "race" of the bearings used for ring and pinions and differentials is extremely hard steel. You will not be able to machine it or drill it.

The steel can be ground using a die grinder. It could be ground on a lathe with a tool post grinder.

When I operated a driveline shop several years ago, I took a brand new Timken bearing cone that was used for the outer pinion bearing and enlarged the bore with a die grinder being very careful to remove material evenly throughout the bore. I stopped after each pass and checked a pinion for fit and when I obtained a snug slip fit I stopped. I also did this with a pair of new differential bearing cones.

Because I had ownership of factory pinion depth tooling, I did not need the inner pinion bearing modified in such a manner. The setup tooling did not use the pinion itself for the setup of pinion depth, but used a precision fixture of a known precise dimension to obtain the required pinion depth, modified only by the + or - markings on the pinion. Even though the tooling gave me the required shim pack thickness for setting the pinion, I always installed the pinion using the dummy outer pinion bearing and set the pinion preload without a seal installed. After I determined the differential offset (Trial and error), I always pulled a pattern the check my work. It was then just a matter of removing the differential and installing the differential bearings with the shims that I had already determined would fit. Replace the outer pinion dummy with the new outer pinion bearing cone and cup and preload shims, install the pinion seal and yoke and torque it down to specs. Install the differential. Pull a final pattern and button things up. The last step was to put the tooling and dummy bearings away with a light coat of oil; ready for the next time they were needed.

The only thing that would have to be done differently for what you propose would be that a inner pinion bearing would have to be modified to slip fit and put as part of the test set.

If you were going to do this, I would start with a set of new bearings OF ONE BRAND, and stick with that brand of bearing for each installation. I sold Timken bearings exclusively in my shop so for the temporary tooling I used Timken bearings. Timken bearings have extremely close dimensional tolerances and can be relied on the set up the same time after time.

I can't speak for other brands of bearings but I am certain that they also extremely very close dimensional tolerances but I would not mix brands of bearings in any setup. Different brands of bearing use the same part numbers for tapered roller bearings, but there could be minor differences in dimensions or even very small differences in the angles of the taper in the bearing cones or cups and this could cause differences in the setup.

Always use the same brand of bearing cone and cup together. Never run a SKF cone, for example, with a Timken cup. Both are reputable manufacturers of bearings...just don't mix them.

Maybe this helped...?

Edited by SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A - 17 Apr. 2017 at 5:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkamonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr. 2017 at 4:50pm
Years ago I made a set for the neighbor kid using a spindle sander. I let the bearing rotate just fast enough at a constant speed with my fingers to ensure an even removal of material.
That worked fine for his set up. Just tight enough to need a slight persuasion to install and remove. I have no idea where they wandered off to and he claims to not have a clue either. They have probably been passed on to several of his friends. Along with several of my FSMs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Apr. 2017 at 5:08pm
Thanks guys, this is exactly what I'm looking for.
 
I worked in a driveline shop in Austin for a few years and we dealt almost exclusively in Timkin bearings. I've bought cheap bearings and learned my lesson. Now the only time I don't use them is if I absolutely can't find them for the application.
 
I was hoping there was a reliable shortcut based on the pinion markings, but after getting mine out and seeing the level of damage, I don't trust that it was set up correctly the last time it was done.
 
The pinion teeth are worn enough they're nearly razor sharp. The contact patch on the ring gear is heavily worn - the flat spots on the top of the teeth are about half as wide as they should be. It only took about 20ft-lbs of torque to get the pinion nut off.
 
There were actually pieces of a shim in the cavity between the pinion races. They look like they were spun through the gears several times.
 
I need to set this up right. As hard as it is to get these gear sets, I can't afford to damage my good used set.
 
I'll price out a sander and see what I can do.
 
Thanks,
Les
1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
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rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Apr. 2017 at 9:49pm
I've read of using a cylinder hone (the bottle-brush type) to open up the bearing bore.  Gotta rinse the bearing out like crazy with solvent afterward.
There's a reason it's called Ol' Unreliable
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr. 2017 at 10:08am
I believe a cylinder hone would be the best solution to opening up the bore of the bearing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Apr. 2017 at 3:03pm
Thanks, I've been pondering that all evening.
Getting closer!
1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
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rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Apr. 2017 at 10:10pm
Les, if the cylinder hone doesn't work you can buy a cheap sanding drum from HFT for the drill press. You don't need to buy an oscillating sander...unless you need an excuse for one

Here's a drum I got at HFT; it's too big of course, but they have smaller ones that should work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jbart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr. 2017 at 8:00am
I have made many set-up bearings with a new bearing and Dremel tool with a barrel sander. Put enough pressure on the inner race to have it spin slowly as you sand the inside. Store it in a zip lock bag with the info on it for next time! It stinks to waste a new bearing, but there really isn't a better way. I agree with using high quality bearings, setting up a diff is too much work to cheap out on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Apr. 2017 at 8:51pm
both good ideas! I have a dremel and a drill press. I'll probably be next week before I can make them though. The electronics card on our furnace went up in smoke this morning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 2:17am
Originally posted by LesBerg LesBerg wrote:

The electronics card on our furnace went up in smoke this morning.


That just doesn't sound right.  Electronics on a furnace, when a couple relays worked out perfectly for many decades? 
There's a reason it's called Ol' Unreliable
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 hours 33 minutes ago at 10:21am
Originally posted by Ol' Unreliable Ol' Unreliable wrote:

Originally posted by LesBerg LesBerg wrote:

The electronics card on our furnace went up in smoke this morning.


That just doesn't sound right.  Electronics on a furnace, when a couple relays worked out perfectly for many decades? 

Modern furnaces have all kinds of electronics in them. Manufacturers of furnaces that are better than 90% efficient are all dependent on electronics to make them operate more efficiently and economically. Furnaces of a couple of decades ago only operated at 80% efficiency where now days efficiencies of 98% are possible using electronic controls. This cuts way down on the gas bills and even more if you have to run propane.

After I got out of the driveline business, I installed HVAC equipment until I retired.


Les: If it weren't for bad luck you wouldn't have any luck at all. I hope this doesn't end up costing you too much. Sorry this happened to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 4 hours 31 minutes ago at 3:23am
Heh! it's back up and running. We live 24/7 in our motorhome. The manufacturers decided some time ago that pilot lights are dangerous, so all propane appliances now have direct spark ignition. 

It turned out that a local shop had the part and we were up and running in a couple hours, for about $120.

And you're absolutely correct on the better economy. I just wish they wouldn't have dropped the BTU output on comparable models. Our old Coleman furnace was replaced when we couldn't find a replacement fan motor. 

We dropped $700 for a new Suburban electronic ignition furnace and it lasted about three years. The Coleman was rated at 33k BTU and the highest output we could find new was 25k BTU. It makes a big difference on how long it has to run when it's -7 outside.

Of course, now that the RV has been modified for the Suburban, we can get fan motors for the Coleman for $70. For about three years, they weren't available at any price. I even kept the old motors in case I could find new bearings for them. We've spent more money on furnace fans than anything else on this motorhome, and it's ALWAYS the shaft bushings that go.

That aside, I may not make the set-up bearings. It turns out that the bearings come off fairly easily without boogering up the shims. 

I made more progress on the diff today. It turns out that almost every shim in both diffs are the fattest ones. My digital caliper is off on it calibration. It's an HF unit, so I suppose it's no surprise. It's says that the 0.054" feeler-gauge stack is 0.069", but at least it's consistent with this measurement so it should get me through this.   

Anyway, I don't have the right combination of shims to set the backlash right, so it's waiting for payday. I wasn't happy with the end-play with the axle gears either, but again, it was all thick shims. So I'll pick up the combo pack and get it all setup correctly. 


1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div
6th Infantry Reg
3rd Infantry Bn
Headquarters Company #161

rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust"
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