"one piece at a time" |
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dasvis
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Sep. 2019 Location: Salem, Oregon Status: Offline Points: 1546 |
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Posted: 13 Apr. 2024 at 6:10pm |
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yup. Always check the simple things first!
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1947 CJ2A #88659 "Rat Patrol"
1953 CJ3A #453-GB1 11266 "Black Beauty" 1964 Thunderbird convertible ..... & one of them moves under it's own power!! |
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nofender
Member Sponsor Member x 3 Joined: 10 May 2016 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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Update....
We have her sorted! As usual these old Jeeps still teach us things. So fuel pump arrived the other day. Even though I was suspect of my diag, what the heck - throw the new pump on. See what happens. So we did. Result - twofold. Air intrusion is eliminated. Great. Not so great. The carb is still dry. No change. it will idle and nothing more. Carb issue. So I decide to pull the carb and have a look. As I'm beginning the process, what do I notice? The accelerator pump linkage had popped out. Could it be that simple.....yep. Pop it back in and she purrs just fine. I found one of them W/O clip doo hickeys in the stash and secured the linkage. Lesson.....no matter how smart you think you are, start from the beginning. Check the obvious. I'm still getting schooled.
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46 CJ2a rockcrawler
46 CJ2a - 26819 46 Bantam T3c "4366" 47 Bantam T3C - 11800 68-ish CJ5 |
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Joe Friday
Moderator Group Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 26 Dec. 2010 Location: Jeep Central Status: Offline Points: 3654 |
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I'd like to make a slight deviation to your post for the sake of knowledge AND entertainment.
Over the last 2 years I was involved with a "rescue" of a Jeep a collection of about a dozen Jeeps that hadn't been run in 25 years and were stored outdoors. I also utilized the marine fuel hose technique. I carry the hose type with a primer bulb, but also quick disconnects. I do this to bypass old fuel in the tank through the pump, so I screw the quick disconnect right into the fuel bowl. At some point I fear this will appear on youtube. The 1960 Surrey (column shift) I was starting had zero brakes, and the clutch disc was bonded to the flywheel. I started the Jeep in gear, and drove around the neighborhood in Colorado. I've had great success freeing up clutches just by keeping it in low gear and stomping on the gas pedal a few times. This one wasn't that easy, and I ended up using about a gallon of fuel driving around before it freed up. I'm pointing this out because although I don't recommend it, it is possible to drive with the fuel bulb in your left hand, while steering with the right. You can feel the stiffness/restriction of the fuel bulb when the bowl is full enough to close the float valve. I've found the method works really well to get people off the trail in an emergency.
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mbullism
Member Sponsor Member x 4 Joined: 29 May 2015 Location: MA Status: Offline Points: 4778 |
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I have no doubt you'll sort it, A... I feel pretty good that you're over the target, and I personally know you won't let it win
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Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it... Welcome to 1930's Germany
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Bruce W
Member Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9649 |
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If the bubbles are coming up around the bottom of the bowl, the gasket is probably bad. You can only squeeze them a certain number of times. Ive also seen the gasket surface on the pump body corroded so that the gasket couldn’t seal. If there’s a chip in the edge of the glass it may not seal. As I said, I’ve seen the pump body distorted by overtightening of the bail. If the surface that the gasket rests on is not flat, it will leak. The glass will not deform to fit against a non-flat surface. If the glass catches on the edge of the lip on the pump body before it contacts the gasket, the body is warped.
BW
Edited by Bruce W - 11 Apr. 2024 at 1:08am |
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It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
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Lee MN
Member Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4949 |
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Fuel delivery demons will bite you in the ass over 9,000’, just sayin 😬
Lee |
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LEE
44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History |
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nofender
Member Sponsor Member x 3 Joined: 10 May 2016 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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Appreciated. But again - that's not how I'm set up. The tank to pump connections are 100% stock configuration. Steel line from the tank to the new rubber flex line attached to the pump. I can see no path for that amount of air on the suction side of the system. Lee suggests the line itself. I'm certainly willing to look at it and replace as needed. I personally have never seen a steel line in good condition suck air through the steel itself. But....hey I haven't seen UFOs! Doesn't mean I can't believe in them. I certainly trust Lee's observations. I had a spot as an alternate for FCT 23. But I let it go as I didn't feel the Jeep was up to snuff. So the very reason I'm testing for FCT in April is so I won't end up being a trail plug in September. I've been running trails for near 35 years. When I ran our club back in the day I had a zero tolerance for unmaintained rigs. I remember kicking a guy out of the club because he couldn't or I should say wouldn't bring a proper rig on a run. Tough day, because he was a nice guy. But I threw him out nonetheless. Anyway, I'll get it figured out. Having build countless fuel systems, from the simplest to the more complex high pressure EFI systems, I'll get her fixed up. I appreciate the suggestions and the banter and the conversations!
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46 CJ2a rockcrawler
46 CJ2a - 26819 46 Bantam T3c "4366" 47 Bantam T3C - 11800 68-ish CJ5 |
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nofender
Member Sponsor Member x 3 Joined: 10 May 2016 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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Yes sir it is.
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46 CJ2a rockcrawler
46 CJ2a - 26819 46 Bantam T3c "4366" 47 Bantam T3C - 11800 68-ish CJ5 |
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cpt logger
Member Joined: 23 Sep. 2012 Location: Western Colorad Status: Offline Points: 3040 |
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Is the fuel cap actually venting as it should? |
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Bruce W
Member Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9649 |
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Yep, Lee, that’s probably tied for first place with the loose inlet fitting, followed by a bad bowl gasket. A case in point:
One guy changed his fuel pump on the trail twice in the same day, with no improvement. Convinced himself that an electric pump would be the only fix. When we got back to the TDR he went to town and bought a pump. I helped him install it. His tank-to-pump line had three hose splices in it. That’s six hose-over-straight tube clamped joints, with no apparent fuel leaks. We used the hose connection nearest the tank outlet to plumb in the pump. When we turned the pump on, his “fuel line” became a sprinkler. I’m sorry guys, but I have spent years fighting and studying these fuel delivery problems. I have had all of them. I have learned how the system works, and how it fails to work. I know what the signs are and what they can tell us, and most of the time I know how to fix them. Please listen, especially if you’re coming to the Fall Colors Tour. BW
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It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
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Lee MN
Member Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4949 |
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Precisely☝️and well said 👍🏽 The fuel line on these fine old rigs is probably one of the MOST overlooked parts, one would assume if it’s not leaking it must be good to go…. I would bet most of the fuel pump issues at the fall colors tours I have been to were the fuel line itself and had nothing to do with the fuel pump ⛽️ Lee |
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LEE
44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History |
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mbullism
Member Sponsor Member x 4 Joined: 29 May 2015 Location: MA Status: Offline Points: 4778 |
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Do or do not... there is no try ...and I take general exception to the word "heaps", lol. You take them "out into the wild" knowing that should something happen you will get everyone, and everything, back... somehow. The rest is the simply the modern day construct known as inconvenience-
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Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it... Welcome to 1930's Germany
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mikec4193
Member Joined: 23 May 2009 Location: Malta NY Status: Offline Points: 1161 |
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That is my biggest fear with these old heaps...trying to take them out into the wild...
Hopefully you can figure it out...keep us in the loop
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I am the squirrel....
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Lee MN
Member Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4949 |
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May be time to freshen that up, do not forget the rubber line between the pump and steel tank line also☝️ Lee😉 |
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LEE
44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History |
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nofender
Member Sponsor Member x 3 Joined: 10 May 2016 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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It looks to be the original steel line. It's the only old part in the system. Hmm.....
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46 CJ2a rockcrawler
46 CJ2a - 26819 46 Bantam T3c "4366" 47 Bantam T3C - 11800 68-ish CJ5 |
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Lee MN
Member Joined: 13 Aug. 2008 Location: Harris, MN Status: Offline Points: 4949 |
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How old is the fuel line from the tank to the fuel pump, as Bruce said they can have pin holes and not leak a drop of fuel but suck air excessively, I have seen this as well, the problem get much worse with elevation☝️
Lee |
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LEE
44 GPW-The Perfected Willys 49 2A “If you wait, you only get older” 67 M715 American Made Rolling History |
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nofender
Member Sponsor Member x 3 Joined: 10 May 2016 Location: Maryland Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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I have a video of it. It looks like coffee percolating in there! It's a lot of air moving around - so much so that I would think the suction leak that size would produce a fuel leak. I completely agree with you on potential leak sources. But here's what my fuel system looks like:
I blew the fuel back into the tank. I could feel good resistance, telling me I was fighting a full tank of fuel. It leads me to believe the shepherd's crook is ok and not exposed to air. When running - I could see a fine line of bubbles that appeared to be coming from the bowl gasket. As a test, I removed the bowl and flipped the gasket. The gasket was still pliable cork. While it seemed to solve that fine leak, major air was still there. It literally looks like water boiling in there - enough air that I thought the flaw would be obvious to see. Very odd. When it broke down, I got a good wiff of fuel. But yet the carb was bone dry. When I got it home, I managed to get it running again. It would only idle. At one point fuel seeped out of the carb as if the float was stuck - yet the carb was dry. Again....very odd. I don't think it's vapor lock issue as the engine wasn't very hot. I could touch the pump and lines without discomfort. I'd been driving for about 3 miles at pretty much sea level. Prior to Sunday, the Jeep ran perfectly. The fuel in the bowl was as it should be. I genuinely hate just throwing parts at a problem. But I was sure I was on the right track looking at the pump. But not finding an obvious cause, I'm questioning my diag. I'm going to gravity feed the carb tomorrow to see if there is any carb issue....while I'm at it.
Edited by nofender - 09 Apr. 2024 at 8:41pm |
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46 CJ2a rockcrawler
46 CJ2a - 26819 46 Bantam T3c "4366" 47 Bantam T3C - 11800 68-ish CJ5 |
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Bruce W
Member Joined: 29 July 2005 Location: Northeast Colorado Status: Offline Points: 9649 |
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Air bubbles in the pump bowl are a sure and certain sign of air entering the “suction” side of the fuel system. Air will actually enter where fuel will not leak out. Atmospheric pressure v/s pump vacuum is a powerful force. Possible places for air leaks are:
The “shepherd’s crook” pickup in the tank. Connecting fitting at the tank outlet. The line from the tank outlet to the fuel pump inlet. Pieces of hose and steel or copper line, spliced together with hose clamps. The most common problem. Pump inlet hose, same problem. Pump inlet fitting loose. It usually tightens up pointing the wrong way, and rather than risk breaking or stripping something, guys back it up and leave it loose. They figure if it leaks fuel they will have to deal with it. There is NO fuel pressure here, and as I said above, atmospheric pressure v/s vacuum is a powerful force, the result of which can’t be seen. Bowl gasket. It must be pliable, not wood hard, and the surface it seals against must be smooth and flat. I have seen pump bodies warped by overtightening of the bowl bail. Its not to hard to see, if the bubbles come in through the fuel inlet ahead of the screen stand, the air is entering from before the pump or at the inlet. If the bubbles appear around the glass bowl, well, there’s your sign. At any rate, bubbles are not good. You want the pump to be pumping fuel, not air. Now. All of this applies to the original style glass-bowl fuel pump. The modern split-bowl pump is a whole ‘nuther story, the last page of which I haven’t seen yet. BW
Edited by Bruce W - 09 Apr. 2024 at 7:59pm |
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It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
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