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"Improved" CJ2A Canvas Top

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    Posted: 20 Oct. 2016 at 7:29pm
Greetings,

 

I am in the beginning stage of creating an “improved” CJ2A top with a historical flair.   It will be a combination of the best of the historical CJ2A top, the Early Land Rover top and modern fasteners.  This top will be designed to be used on a CJ2A with stock bows.   

JPet and I have been going back and forth on this and he has persuaded me to post this in the hopes that it may be of value to others creating tops in the future.

Materials:  On hand I have a 1946 CJ2A w/ top bows & door frames (3A type frames), canvas (Mil Spec .037 thick olive drab), 90+ yards of edge binding in various widths, 20 plus WW2 straps with buckles and ends, window material, Velcro, black thread and the 1939 Singer 111-152.

 

These are my design parameters in order of importance:

1.            Function – foul weather while off-roading and plowing

2.            Historical feel – materials and style base design 20-foot look

3.            Practical for use in the field.

4.            Easy access to inside of the rear.

5.            Ease of installation.

Things that I want to avoid when making a top:

1.            Turn style fasteners that attach to the canvas.  I am OK with the turn style fasteners that screw into the windshield.  But want to avoid the ones that are mounted into the canvas.  Where possible I would like to use Velcro or WW2 style straps instead.  Velcro will be versatile as the canvas changes with age and weather.

2.            The two-piece roof looks great and does not leak according to those with experience with them, But I want a single section full roof without the inner half top flap on the inside behind the seats.

Things that I want to design into the top:

1.            Stock looking Doors from the outside.

2.            Drivers door with a hand signal zipper with a storm flap.

3.            Doors to have Velcro instead of turn buckles at the windshield arm pivot and not the twist fasteners.

4.            Single piece roof.  Seamed down the middle.

5.            Side curtains that are sewn on to the roof (similar the early Land Rovers).

6.            Side curtains that roll up for access while the back is still in the down position.

7.            Side curtains and rear curtains that can be rolled and buckled in the up position.

8.            Straps to hold the rolled curtains in the up position - sewn into the top so they are not seen from the outside unless they are in use.  The plan is to make the roof and side curtains overlap about 2 inches and create a slot between the curtain and top that the strap can poke through when they are being used to hold the rolled curtains up.

9.            Rear curtain will look like a stock CJ2A but with several changes: The rear corners will use the style of closure used on the early 1950 Land Rovers with a tuck tab to join the side curtains to the rear curtain at the corner.  The tuck tabs will use Velcro and not a buckle like the Rover top.  Unlike the Rover the tuck tab corner pocket, the pocket to be sewn on the inside of the side flap making them invisible from the outside.  The rear curtain will use the WW2 straps w/ buckles like the standard CJ2A top – to attach the bottom along the rear of the tub.

10.          Add storm flaps along the doors and where the top joins to the side and back of tub (still need to design these).  I am considering using a 5” piece of canvas folded in half with a piece of ¼” rope sewed into the fold to create a bead.  Then sew the now 2.5” rope bead on the inside of the top and doors where so it rests on the tub with about a 2-inch storm flap.  The flap can be pulled in over the edge of the tub to create a good seal for blowing snow or it can be left just hanging straight down for light weather use.  In the hanging straight down position the rope bead will be about 1/2 inches above the bottom edge binding.

11.          Considering mounting the side curtain bottom buckles on the outside like WW2 MB curtain for access reasons (CJ2A are mounted on the inside).  Still undecided – if they are on the inside they could be hard to get to from the outside and they would interfere with the storm flaps.  If they are on the outside they will be subject to the weather and getting caught on brush.

12.          Still need to design the rear curtain - the 1946 trail Jeep has a water can and a tire mounted on the back – so a zippered arch window like the CJ2A style might make for better access without deal with the straps around the rear mounted gear.  JPet has cautioned me on the shrinkage I may encounter on the canvas and its potential problems with the zipper.

13.          Door windows are a stock triangle design.  Side and rear window based on usability and historical design.  Temped to make them a little larger than the stock gun port armored car window look.

Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bob W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct. 2016 at 8:27pm
Take a look at an M-38 enclosure for ideas. It already has some of the features you desire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct. 2016 at 11:16pm
Looking forward to seeing this design
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkel Dale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Oct. 2016 at 1:53am
I do not spend much time here. I am thankful for your posting this project. I need to do this in my winter repair season. My 2a does not see winter, yet no roof. Will you post measurements of the raw cuts and the end sewn measurements? Will you post vendors and costs? Dale
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct. 2016 at 7:23pm
I did a few of these things with my previous top. Let me run down your list and give some feedback, if you don't mind.
 
My first top was made from a civilian canvas tarp and experienced severe shrinkage. This summer, it shrank so bad while installed that it tore out through the roof. I built it with about two inches of shrinkage allowance, and by the time it tore out, it was three inches too short, windshield to rear bow, and four inches too narrow.
 
Bear in mind that my jeep is stretched 24 inches and my top is considerably longer than standard. It also uses a custom frame instead of a bow set.

Originally posted by Stev Stev wrote:

Greetings,

I am in the beginning stage of creating an “improved” CJ2A top with a historical flair.   It will be a combination of the best of the historical CJ2A top, the Early Land Rover top and modern fasteners.  This top will be designed to be used on a CJ2A with stock bows.   

JPet and I have been going back and forth on this and he has persuaded me to post this in the hopes that it may be of value to others creating tops in the future.

Materials:  On hand I have a 1946 CJ2A w/ top bows & door frames (3A type frames), canvas (Mil Spec .037 thick olive drab), 90+ yards of edge binding in various widths, 20 plus WW2 straps with buckles and ends, window material, Velcro, black thread and the 1939 Singer 111-152.

Good deal on the milspec canvas. Part of the spec limits shrinkage. The milspec canvas I used showed shrinkage characteristics opposite of standard canvas. Mine shrinks in warm weather and sags in the cold and wet. The tarp I used was the opposite.   

These are my design parameters in order of importance:

1.            Function – foul weather while off-roading and plowing

2.            Historical feel – materials and style base design 20-foot look

3.            Practical for use in the field.

4.            Easy access to inside of the rear.

5.            Ease of installation.

Ditto on all points.

Things that I want to avoid when making a top:

1.            Turn style fasteners that attach to the canvas.  I am OK with the turn style fasteners that screw into the windshield.  But want to avoid the ones that are mounted into the canvas.  Where possible I would like to use Velcro or WW2 style straps instead.  Velcro will be versatile as the canvas changes with age and weather.

I didn't make it to the canvas-on-canvas fasteners, but was planning on using them and using zippers to attach the side & rear curtain to the roof. Based on shrinkage, I've abandoned this on my second top. When I can afford them, I'll use the stock-style fasteners to attach to the window frame, but my new top uses industrial 2" velcro to attach the rear and front roof together, and to attach the side curtains. All pieces use straps to attach to the frame/bows and to the tub.
 
I accounted to 5% shrinkage in the mil-spec canvas and made all the parts slightly larger than that. Using straps to attach at the bows gives the top excellent adjustability for daily shrinkage & stretching and allows for overall lifetime shrinkage. The same goes for the velcro.

2.            The two-piece roof looks great and does not leak according to those with experience with them, But I want a single section full roof without the inner half top flap on the inside behind the seats.

Be wary of shrinkage here. Your top is shorter than mine, assuming that you jeep is stock length. Just note that your worst shrinkage problems will be in the longest dimensions of the canvas. If you know which mil-spec your canvas is made to, you can reference that specification for information on allowable shrinkage and plan for it. 

Things that I want to design into the top:

1.            Stock looking Doors from the outside.

2.            Drivers door with a hand signal zipper with a storm flap.

3.            Doors to have Velcro instead of turn buckles at the windshield arm pivot and not the twist fasteners.

I was concerned that velcro wouldn't hold at this point, but after seeing how the 2" industrial velcro is doing holding my rear roof to the front, I think velcro will do just fine.

4.            Single piece roof.  Seamed down the middle.

If your seam leaks and you decide to use a seam sealer, find something that is UV resistant. So far, all the seam sealers I've found are basically rubber cement. While fine for tents that see daylight for a few days or weeks of the year, I doubt it will hold up to 24/7 exposure.

5.            Side curtains that are sewn on to the roof (similar the early Land Rovers).

6.            Side curtains that roll up for access while the back is still in the down position.

7.            Side curtains and rear curtains that can be rolled and buckled in the up position.

8.            Straps to hold the rolled curtains in the up position - sewn into the top so they are not seen from the outside unless they are in use.  The plan is to make the roof and side curtains overlap about 2 inches and create a slot between the curtain and top that the strap can poke through when they are being used to hold the rolled curtains up.

This is how my first top was made, I take that back. I had straps sewn to the inside, and buckles on the outside. I'll finish this one the same way as my last (I don't have the straps and buckles on yet), except that I've attached my curtains to the roof with velcro. I'm using a 'commercial' sewing machine, not 'industrial'. I had a very hard time sewing the sides to the top because of the associated bulk going through the throat of the machine. You'll also need a HUGE table setup, and likely an assistant, to get it through the machine with decent stitching. This was a big part of my decision to attach the sides with velcro.
 
I used a clear flexible vinyl plastic for my windows so they could be rolled up with the curtains and buckled. They don't do well with attempting to scrape frost or wipe off mud, and they're not crystal clear.  I don't know what your plans are, I just thought I'd share my experience. Lemon Pledge goes a long way to keeping them clear, and seems to prevent fogging for a few days when it's pouring outside.

9.            Rear curtain will look like a stock CJ2A but with several changes: The rear corners will use the style of closure used on the early 1950 Land Rovers with a tuck tab to join the side curtains to the rear curtain at the corner.  The tuck tabs will use Velcro and not a buckle like the Rover top.  Unlike the Rover the tuck tab corner pocket, the pocket to be sewn on the inside of the side flap making them invisible from the outside.  The rear curtain will use the WW2 straps w/ buckles like the standard CJ2A top – to attach the bottom along the rear of the tub.

I'll have to look into these pocket closures. I ran out of canvas and am currently working on a 'hatch' for mine. I would have had plenty, but I donated 35 feet of my roll to making an awning for the RV this summer.Cry
 
 
continued next post. There seems to be a limit on how long these can be...


Edited by LesBerg - 30 Oct. 2016 at 7:53pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct. 2016 at 7:26pm
continued from previous

Originally posted by Stev Stev wrote:

10.          Add storm flaps along the doors and where the top joins to the side and back of tub (still need to design these).  I am considering using a 5” piece of canvas folded in half with a piece of ¼” rope sewed into the fold to create a bead.  Then sew the now 2.5” rope bead on the inside of the top and doors where so it rests on the tub with about a 2-inch storm flap.  The flap can be pulled in over the edge of the tub to create a good seal for blowing snow or it can be left just hanging straight down for light weather use.  In the hanging straight down position the rope bead will be about 1/2 inches above the bottom edge binding.

I designed my storm flaps to be part of the roof itself so there wouldn't be an overlap seam on the outside to catch water. Instead, I sewed the flaps on the inside and used it for attaching to the frame/bows/curtains. By way of example, the side curtains don't attach to the piece of canvas that is the rear roof of the jeep. The roof piece hangs down over the outside by two inches as the rain flap. I have a 2" flap sewn to the inside 2" from the edge (so the outside edges of the roof and flap are even) and the side curtain attached to the flap. This allows rain to flow off the top unimpeded, with no seam to catch on and drip through. 

11.          Considering mounting the side curtain bottom buckles on the outside like WW2 MB curtain for access reasons (CJ2A are mounted on the inside).  Still undecided – if they are on the inside they could be hard to get to from the outside and they would interfere with the storm flaps.  If they are on the outside they will be subject to the weather and getting caught on brush.

My first top was set up CJ2A style. I'll keep that for this top, except I'm going to add a flap on the inside that will start above the straps and hang below the top of the tub. This should minimize drafts and getting mud/water inside the tub. I'm considering adding a magnetic strip to hold the curtain against the tub, but I'm concerned about abrading the paint.

12.          Still need to design the rear curtain - the 1946 trail Jeep has a water can and a tire mounted on the back – so a zippered arch window like the CJ2A style might make for better access without deal with the straps around the rear mounted gear.  JPet has cautioned me on the shrinkage I may encounter on the canvas and its potential problems with the zipper.

I'm planning on making a removable, canvas-covered frame that can be entirely lifted on gas pistons or open a stock-shaped door. I'm hoping to build a new rear bumper for jerry cans and two spare tires this winter, and hatch/door options would greatly simplify access in the rear.

13.          Door windows are a stock triangle design.  Side and rear window based on usability and historical design.  Temped to make them a little larger than the stock gun port armored car window look.

This is how mine turned out, as the frames I adapted to my jeep started life as 3B door frames. I'm considering going to a 'positive' latch like the hard tops had, and making them lockable.

  

I'll get pictures uploaded to my build thread later this evening. Right now, I need to get busy on the leather Plague Doctor mask I'm making for my son's Halloween costume. Wink


Edited by LesBerg - 30 Oct. 2016 at 7:55pm
1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
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3rd Infantry Bn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct. 2016 at 12:24am
To each his own but do you really want a lockable canvas door? Alot of people carry pocketknives.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct. 2016 at 2:58am
LesBerg,

Thanks for the input.  Everyone has a cautionary tale about shrinkage.  I have use several types of Mil Spec canvas on hand.  My current top is a summer top made of a nice tight weave old school waxed Mil Spec canvas.  I have not had a lot of shrinkage because I store it inside.  

I recently picked up two other pieces of Mil Spec canvas.  One is a modern non waxed type which I plan to use on this project. I also plan on using Thompson's multi surface water seal on it.  I have not decided if I should coat it before or after making the top.  Tending towards before.

The second piece of Mil Spec is old school waxed but also has a heavy coated side.  The coated side is extremely heavy and i don't think it could shrink.  I am going to use this canvas to make a set of door coverings and side curtains for the existing summer top.  The current plan is to use a heavy loop style zipper on each side to join the top to the side curtains.  This will also be a trial run for some of the features on this big project describe above.  

I have been told that zipper could be a problem so that is something to consider.

Rocnroll - I have no plans for locking doors.     

Stev 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct. 2016 at 12:03pm
Steve, can't wait to see this top...sounds like a nice one! Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct. 2016 at 1:21pm
Rocnroll,
All locks do is keep honest people honest, but a knifed door or side curtain says 'call the cops' a lot faster than finding something has disappeared hours later.

And sometimes it's all it takes to deter someone on the verge of doing something stupid. Around here, people aren't as likely to knife a door in a parking lot as they are to pull open a door like the owner would.

I keep a motion-sensing dash cam in the jeep and powered up when I'm out and about in town. And when I'm hunting I have a game camera trained on it. It won't keep things from getting stolen, but it gives the cops a picture.


Stev,
Let me know how the Thompson's works out. I've found that the non-waxed mil-spec canvas I have doesn't need it, and it doesn't shrink much. I made doors from it last December and they still haven't pulled tight on the frame, even with only an extra half-inch of material all around the edges.

I thought about hitting it with Canvak as a belt-and-suspenders approach, but I don't know if that would change the shrinkage or if the two waterproofing treatments would cause problems of some kind.

To test it before committing to it on the top, you could make a pair of 1'x1' wooden frames and staple canvas to them. Treat one with the Thompson's, and set them out in the weather . See if the behave the same.

The canvas I have soaks through and leaks like mad the first time it's rained on. After that, the outside gets wet and nothing comes through unless there's a significant puddle. Then it just weeps a little.

Just a thought.

Please post pics as you're working on it, I'm interested in seeing how it comes together.

Thanks,
Les


Edited by LesBerg - 31 Oct. 2016 at 1:23pm
1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div
6th Infantry Reg
3rd Infantry Bn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct. 2016 at 5:10pm
I'm hope I'm not chasing a rabbit here but since some discussion on shrinkage is going on, I'll throw this in there and then get off it:

Here is a bunch of information from the past that wil make your head hurt:


.... The term "mil-spec" is used often, but which mil-specs they are complying to is often unclear.
 
I'll try to sum it up the best my memory can.

MIL-C-43627D is the document that refers to "dimensional stability" and the testing procedure is described in  FED-STD-191.  Part of the testing procedure is that the fabric is washed in detergent, dried, and ironed.  The way I read the document, the fabric can not shrink more than 2% during this procedure either warp or weft.  ...... so IMO, there is no reason to preshrink a mil-spec fabric since that is part of its testing ..... that is if the "mil-spec" is MIL-C-43627D.  I think FED-STD-191 explains the testing for colorfast but I can't remember.  The specifications for dying and aftertreatment are explained in document CCC-C-950F (document now supeceeded). ....... blah, blah, blah,  my only point is that when choosing a "mil-spec" fabric, I would make sure that the mil-spec is MIL-C-43627D or a document that superceeds it..... not just "mil-spec"

I have read that typically the warp yarns of a square weave fabric will shrink more than the weft yarn. It seems logical to me that a square weave fabric, such as #8 would not shrink anymore warp than it does weft since the yarns are identical and especially if you cut the edges off the fabric.  I have not seen significant difference in shrinkage from warp to weft in the fabric I use, but other manufacturers including Dave Pizzoferratto, tell me that they allow for more shrinkage horizontally and of course I have way less experience than Dave.  I suppose it has something to do with the way the warp yarns are stretched on the loom compared to the weft yarn that traverses through. ... IDK  I think this is more important to know when dealing with a fabric that does not pass FED-STD-191 testing. ... now back to your regularly scheduled top making.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct. 2016 at 6:25pm

Jpet - always good info - all be it a bit overwhelming.

The issue I have is I have no idea what mil spec this canvas is – so testing is needed for shrinkage.

This is the Free shrink test I am considering:

The test would be to take two pieces of 12” x 12” canvas sheets from the same bolt that I plan on making the top from.  Treat one with Thompson multi surface water seal (test sample #1) and leave one untreated (test sample #2 - the control).  Submerge them both in water rain water for 24 hours (collected in the last month).  Then put them between to panes of glass with a 1/4-inch space between the pieces of glass (so the moisture can get out) and leave them outside in the Sun for a week.   The glass, canvas, ¼” air gap and glass stack would be put on a black back ground.  I would repeat the test for four cycles - soaking in rain water every 7 days.  After 4 weeks, it would be time to remeasure and see if any shrinkage has accrued.  I will note the machine direction on each piece of canvas at the start of the test.

I would expect the canvas to see temps ranging from 150 degrees to 40 degrees between the days in the sun and nights.

Any other suggestions for this test?  I have everything on hand and can probably get started as soon as the Thompson’s water seal dries.

Stev
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct. 2016 at 6:41pm
Do you have any technical data on the fabric you are using?
This fabric is 18oz. vat-dyed and that's it?  No other after-treatment? 

Edit:  The reason I ask is because I was wondering if when you put on the Thompson water seal, will it react with any treatment that is already on the fabric.  I assume that since this fabric is "mil-spec" and it is OD in color that it is class C, i.e. no after treatment.


Edited by jpet - 31 Oct. 2016 at 7:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct. 2016 at 7:53pm
Here are the documents I have been talking about:


IMO, a top maker wants to use a Class B fabric as outlined in CCC-D-950F page 2.  class B means the fabric is treated for water repellance and mildew resistants.

A Class C fabric is still "mil-spec" even though it is untreated..... that's what i mean when I say, "mil-spec" is not enough.

This isn't directed to you Stev, or Les,  I'm just speaking to the readers in general.  OK .... I'm off
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct. 2016 at 9:33pm
Here is the Mil Spec on the canvas I have:

The NSN is 8305-00-242-3593

The data is:

MILSPEC CCC-C-419
ZZZX DEPARTURE FROM CITED DESIGNATOR AS MOD BY COLOR AND ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION
 ZZZT NONDEFINITIVE SPEC/STD DATA I TYPE
 SFCD SURFACE CONDITION HARD
 HUES COLOR OLIVE DRAB, US ARMY, 7 BOTH SIDES
 FMAT FIBER MATERIAL COTTON BASIC
 FEAT SPECIAL FEATURES CLOTH WEIGHT REPRESENTS WEIGHT BEFORE TREATMENT
 AKKK CLOTH WEIGHT 20.700 OUNCES PER SQUARE YARD MINIMUM AND 22.800 OUNCES PER SQUARE YARD MAXIMUM
 AELU TRADE DESIGNATION 6
 ADZC ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION MILDEW RESISTANT, CCC-D-950 AND WATER REPELLENT, CCC-D-950
 ABGL WIDTH 60.000 INCHES NOMINAL

Let me know your thoughts.  

Stev
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1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct. 2016 at 9:41pm
Also found this definition:
ABGLA measurement taken at right angles to the length of an item, in distinction from thickness

Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct. 2016 at 10:13pm
Your test sounds valid to me, and I'm curious as to the outcome.
1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div
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3rd Infantry Bn
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rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct. 2016 at 11:59pm
 I have been reading Mil Spec info and the ASTM tested for shrinkage and mildew resistance CCC-D-950.  The spec on this canvas reflects that ASTM Test.  So..... we should use it to sew a top...

 
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