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The Resurrection of CJ2-26

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Frank View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frank Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb. 2017 at 6:33pm
Fred,

Nice write up, keep the updates coming along. Quick question, is the "Jeep" windshield panel the same height as the MB/GPW rather than what the Willys 2A's have ?

Thanks,

Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote berettajeep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb. 2017 at 8:32pm
This is very interesting to follow, thank you for sharing Fred. ( Also to the others for all the information!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Coldwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb. 2017 at 9:10pm
Todd:

Thank you for posting all the photos of other CJ-2 jeep speedometers, especially the early Agrijeeps. I noticed a seemingly consistent difference between the speedometers installed in the Agrijeeps, where the individual mph speed hash marks stopped exactly at 60 mph, and those in the speedometers on the stamped JEEPs, where they went up to 63 mph. The difference can be seen here on CJ2-06 on the left and CJ2-37 on the right:

 

The difference is due to the different brands of speedometers installed in the Agrijeeps and the stamped JEEPs. They are both MB speedometers, W.O. part number A-8180, and Willys used two different speedo manufacturers for MB production to assure it always had an adequate supply on hand. As of January 1944, the two optional MB speedos were Auto-Lite model SPK 4003 and King-Seeley model 40355.

I just spent at hour on the Jeepdraw web site in G503.com looking at the various GPW and MB speedometers. Although I found descriptions and photos of speedos that are close to the ones pictured in the CJ-2 jeeps, I have not yet found exact matches. My quick look suggests the 60 mph speedo found in the Agrijeeps is an Auto-Lite / Motometer Division speedo, while the 63 mph speedo found in the stamped JEEPs might be a King-Seeley speedo, as that is the only brand shown with hash marks above 60 mph (although shown only in their early 1942 speedos). So further research and work will be required to track down the correct speedometers for CJ2-09 and CJ2-26.  Any and all help will be appreciated, as late WW II speedos seem to have less written about them than early WW II speedos.   

Todd mentioned the existence of CJ2-29, and that is the fourth stamped CJ-2 JEEP known to exist. Unfortunately it has been modified quite a bit as seen here:



Additionally, its original instrument panel has been cut out and crudely replaced with the center gauge cluster from an early Willys pickup truck or Jeepster:



so it does not provide us with any information about the instruments used in the stamped CJ-2 JEEPs. 

Frank, the windshield assembly used in all CJ-2 jeeps is the MB windshield assembly, modified to have weld studs installed for securing the center top bow sections with brackets on the inside of the lower solid panel and either drilled for a bronze JEEP name plaque on the Argijeeps or simply stamped with the name JEEP on the later CJ-2 stamped JEEPs.  It is not the taller CJ-2A windshield assembly.  

I am glad this discussion of speedometers have proved of interest to many readers. Thanks for starting it, autolite. Smile

Happy Jeep Trails,


Fred Coldwell
Denver, CO
1944 CJ2-09 - X-33
1945 CJ2-26 - X-50

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nick_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Feb. 2017 at 10:59pm
Great information! I enjoy the technical details.

It looks like CJ2-29 is almost unrecognizable from being an early prototype. How did you find its true heritage?

Is there any geographical trend between the discoveries of these early Jeeps?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 12:25am
The person who has CJ2-29 contacted me a few years ago.  He was actually going to part it out!  I convinced him not to do this.  I think I convinced him too good because I not only talked him out of parting it out, I then couldn't buy it from him!  He wanted to restore it with his son.  This is the only one that still has its original JEEP tailgate.  I tried to get him to let us borrow it to copy it.  But he seems to have changed his email.
 
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Coldwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 12:25am
Originally posted by Nick_ Nick_ wrote:

. . . It looks like CJ2-29 is almost unrecognizable from being an early prototype. How did you find its true heritage?  Is there any geographical trend between the discoveries of these early Jeeps?

Hi Nick:

CJ2-29 was identified by its frame tag:



Most CJ-2 jeeps were found east of the Mississippi river, usually close to the universities or agricultural institutions where they were tested during and shortly after WW II. Only CJ2-26 has been found west of the Mississippi. Most others were found in New York, Penna and Ohio. CJ2-09 was found in Virginia. More information can be found here:

http://www.willys-overland.com/

 

Happy Jeep Trails,


Fred Coldwell
Denver, CO
1944 CJ2-09 - X-33
1945 CJ2-26 - X-50

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 12:28am
Luckily Fred the speedometers you need are out there!  With so many MBs, I am sure you will find one!
Todd Paisley

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 12:36am
The thing about these CJ-2s is that they never wandered very far from where they were tested.  The Rosetta stone for finding these is in the early literature where they mentioned the test sites.  That is how others and myself where able to do a bunch of sleuthing to find a lot of these early Jeeps.  There are still a few test sites where the Jeeps haven't been found yet, but they did exist a few decades ago. (Such as PA and FL.)  I'm surprised the early CJ-2s seemed to have survived in greater numbers than the later stamped JEEP ones.
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Coldwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 4:03am
Originally posted by Todd Paisley Todd Paisley wrote:

Luckily Fred the speedometers you need are out there!  With so many MBs, I am sure you will find one!

Todd:

Thank you for the good wishes. Below are two photos (backs and fronts) of the speedometer taken out of CJ2-26, which is always on the left next to its bracket, and two spare speedometers I have. The position of the two screws and the odometer reset knob on their backs identify these as Auto-Lite speedometers per Willys engineering drawing A-8180:



I think they are arranged early to late from left to right, based on my hunch about the degree of weatherproofing on the back sides. The odometer reset shaft on the left one taken out of CJ2-26 does not have any thimble or seal at its base to guard against water getting in, while the two to its right have felt type seals at the base of their odometer reset shafts that are held in place by the threaded thimbles at the bottom of each shaft. The speedometer on the far right also has a large washer held in place by a large nut at the base of its speedo cable input, suggesting additional weatherproofing which, in my mind, might make it the latest of all. 

Here are their faces in the same order left to right:



The two screws that hold on the face plate are positioned at 10 and 50 mph on each speedo. The two speedos to the right each stop at 60 mph, unlike the speedos shown in all the other CJ-2 stamped JEEPs which go to 63 mph. However, the rusted speedo taken out of CJ2-26, being the earliest of the three, might have gone to 63 mph. But I'll have to find proof of that on an Auto-Lite speedo dial to validate that idea. Or, unlike all the other speedos used in stamped CJ-2 JEEPs, it might have only gone up to 60 mph like the other two speedos to its right. In any event, for the time being, I think I will just clean up and install in CJ2-26 the Auto-Lite speedo to the far right and call it good.  
Happy Jeep Trails,


Fred Coldwell
Denver, CO
1944 CJ2-09 - X-33
1945 CJ2-26 - X-50

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 11:36am
Fred, I'm still pained in my mind as to the original engine. I know you tried not to touch on the subject with the original owner so the deal wouldn't go south, but have you ever tried to find the guy that had it and didn't fix it for the original owner?

Todd Paisley's provided tailgate photo of the only existing tailgate was fantastic. The vertical pressings are different from later CJ2A's correct? So, a Agrijeep tailgate with the rectangular Jeep added? 

Did your Jeep have provisions for a early CJ2 rear seat in the floor?

Tires originally would have been?-------NDT's, Knobbys, or what? 

This is a fasinating project. You may end up with more pages than Jeff's modified thread. Clap 

Your new book will be titled: The reincarnation of CJ 2-26 ???????? I want a copy please. Oilly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 12:41pm
The later CJ-2 tailgates did not have the horizontal ribs at the bottom like the production CJ-2As.  They added that raised rectangular area for the JEEP stamping.
 
Even the early CJ-2s had provisions for the rear seat.  So CJ2-29 would have it as well.  The tires would have been NDTs.  CJ2-37 still has its original spare tire! 
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
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1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
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1945 CJ2A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 12:54pm

Fred:  I think the screw position on the speedo makes it look like it isn't a King-Seeley.  It does look like an Auto-Lite.  What I would do is take it apart and see if the numbers on the speedometer/odometer are still in good shape.  The numbers looks to be shaped slightly different between the 2.

King-Seeley:
 
 
 
Notice how the zeroes are shaped.  If you look on the back, you can validate if it is a Motometer by looking for this stamp:
 


Edited by Todd Paisley - 24 Feb. 2017 at 12:57pm
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by Oilleaker1 Oilleaker1 wrote:

Fred, I'm still pained in my mind as to the original engine. I know you tried not to touch on the subject with the original owner so the deal wouldn't go south, but have you ever tried to find the guy that had it and didn't fix it for the original owner?

 Oilly

Oilly - I've done my due diligence bugging Fred about this since I spend a month a year in San Angelo.
We found the previous owners brother. I also had a local contact put up a bounty at all the local machine shops. The issue is that both locations this engine should have been found are next door to scrap operations. There is also the complication that there used to be a 'Jeep only' scrap yard in San Angelo called Leonards. I searched that yard amongst dozens of MB's, GPW's, CJ's etc even a whole barn full of L heads that were purchased in the 1970's from DOD surplus sales. I did not locate Fred's engine. Leonard has since passed away and his son sold everything for scrap. The engine blocks went to a rebuilder in Oklahoma that paid STUPID money for them and was never heard from again. 

PS - There was another orange 1946 CJ2A in the scrap yard behind the brothers business in San Angelo. YES, I popped the hood to make sure it didn't have Freds Engine.



Edited by Joe Friday - 24 Feb. 2017 at 3:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Coldwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 4:23pm
Originally posted by Oilleaker1 Oilleaker1 wrote:

Fred, I'm still pained in my mind as to the original engine. I know you tried not to touch on the subject with the original owner so the deal wouldn't go south, but have you ever tried to find the guy that had it and didn't fix it for the original owner?

John: Todd and Keith have answered most of your questions, but I'll fill in a few areas. Shortly after I bought CJ2-26 I twice mailed letters to the seller, offering to pay extra for the tailgate which he said was still at the San Angelo ranch. I never got any reply and did not have his phone number, so did not press harder. Perhaps I should have. If he had replied, I would have followed up about the engine. But it is now 19 years later, plus the unknown number of years earlier when the engine was removed, so it seems unlikely to be found after all those years. Nevertheless, Keith has gone above and beyond reasonable in his efforts to track down that original engine, which I really appreciate. But getting CJ2-26 up and running again is my greatest priority, which is why I'm rebuilding close engine MB-504693.    

Originally posted by Oilleaker1 Oilleaker1 wrote:

Todd Paisley's provided tailgate photo of the only existing tailgate was fantastic. The vertical pressings are different from later CJ2A's correct? So, a Agrijeep tailgate with the rectangular Jeep added?
Correct, as shown in the the drawings Keith kindly provided. 

Originally posted by Oilleaker1 Oilleaker1 wrote:

Did your Jeep have provisions for a early CJ2 rear seat in the floor?
Yes, same as the CJ-2A except the rear seat leg rollers are riveted in place instead of held on place with bolts and nuts, which allow for removal and cleaning. CJ-2 jeeps come with higher restoration hurdles.  Wink

Originally posted by Oilleaker1 Oilleaker1 wrote:

Tires originally would have been?-------NDT's, Knobbys, or what?
NDTs. I have a new set of five lovely Goodyear reproduction pencil point NDT tires ready to be mounted on 4.50 by 16 inch solid disc wheels.



Edited by Fred Coldwell - 24 Feb. 2017 at 4:27pm
Happy Jeep Trails,


Fred Coldwell
Denver, CO
1944 CJ2-09 - X-33
1945 CJ2-26 - X-50

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Coldwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 4:25pm
Todd: The rusty speedo removed from CJ2-26 is definitely not a King-Seeley, which to date is the only brand speedo that has hash marks going up to 63 mph. So perhaps CJ2-26 had a different speedo in it than all the other CJ-2 stamped JEEPs. Or, far less likely, maybe the dial on the early short arm Auto-Lite speedos did go up to 63 mph, although I have never seen such a speedo to date. As we know, Willys cleaned out the stock room of obsolete parts when building the CJ-2 jeeps, which is why I am not particularly surprised that, based on the odometer meter reset shaft, the speedo removed from CJ2-26 seems to be an early version of an Auto-Lite speedo.

There is no Motometer stamping on the rear case of any of the Auto-Lite speedos I have, nor is there any remnant of any ink stamped model number. And apparently the Auto-Lite speedos do not have any model number in tiny letters at the very top of their dial face as do the King-Seeley, Stewart Warner and AC speedometers.      


Edited by Fred Coldwell - 24 Feb. 2017 at 4:47pm
Happy Jeep Trails,


Fred Coldwell
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1944 CJ2-09 - X-33
1945 CJ2-26 - X-50

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leecarr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 8:21pm
You guys are on a whole different level with these, incredible research, keep it coming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Feb. 2017 at 10:18pm
Since they have Jeeps that carry the Factory "X" number that designates experimental, we refer to them as the "X MEN".
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