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Weird Brake problem

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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar. 2017 at 2:28am
Let me get this straight. You brought the part into the mechanic and had him work on it...right? Now you want the mechanic to warranty the MC when the job went south? It seems to me that the cause of the problem isn't real obvious, but if the MC was installed wrong then perhaps they should warranty their labor. However, IF the MC is defective, that is hardly the mechanics fault. Kaiser-Willys should, and probably will warranty it by supplying another MC.

This is one of the reasons I seldom installed parts that people brought into my driveline shop. There is always the joker that just KNOWS that it was YOUR labor that was at fault, it couldn't have been the Brand X new part that they brought in...but it happened enough of the time that I quit letting customers bring in parts.

If the parts I sold were at fault, I didn't have any problem with replacing them AND my labor to correct the problem. That seldom happened...

...and because I could buy many of the parts at the same price as the auto parts stores I could still offer my customer a discount from list price and offer a better part than what Bubba's Discount Auto Parts down the street was selling.

My advice would be to let the mechanic go back over his work to make sure it was installed properly, but if it is a bad part he will more than likely charge you the time to replace that part. If his installation was at fault, then he should make his labor good to get the problem corrected.

Hope you find out what is causing the problem and everything works out for you and your mechanic.

Like Rick G mentioned before, I would suspect the copper washers that are on each side of the brass banjo fitting if there was an external leak. The Willys part numbers for those copper washers are 637606 (outer) and 637604 (inner). New copper gaskets really ought to be installed each time the banjo is removed. from the MC. The bolt 637605 that goes through the banjo could be cracked or corroded where it won't seal up. I would replace that while you are in there. Cheap insurance...

...good luck...

Edited by SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A - 08 Mar. 2017 at 2:30am
46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub)

U.S. Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer(ret.)
U.S. Army Vietnam veteran and damned proud of it.



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cpt logger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar. 2017 at 10:40am
Heck, I was under the impression that the mechanic supplied the master cylinder.

Still, I would take it back to the mechanic. First though, call your supplier & discuss what to do with them. Then when you get with the mechanic, you will know what the supplier will, or will not, do for you.

Like SE Kansas, I will not install customer supplied parts for the exact reasons that he has stated.

...Good Luck... !!!

PS. Where did K-W get this master cylinder? China? OMix? Was there any manufacturers name on it or it's box?

 


Edited by cpt logger - 08 Mar. 2017 at 10:43am
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jscheiner.09 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jscheiner.09 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar. 2017 at 3:06pm
SE, 
I installed the MC myself. Brought it into the shop to have the whole car looked over, I had one tiny brake leak from where the line goes to the front axle from the MC. I had them fix that. They checked the brakes and said everything was good. I wasn't going to call them again because they didn't install the MC so It would not really be their responsibility. 

I spoke with Kaiser Willys about it. And I may not have checked the free pedal travel. Which would allow the pedal to go too far, past the check valve, and let fluid go around the plunger. I am going to check this when I get home, if the pedal travel is normal and set correctly, then they said they would replace the MC. Hopefully it is just set incorrectly. 

Thanks!
js
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jscheiner.09 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar. 2017 at 11:57pm
I cannot tell if the problem is coming from the master cylinder, or the one of the fittings...
I took it around the block today and what happens is, I have no brake pedal the first push. Then the second couple right after it I have pressure. They aren't stopping 100 percent I feel...I assume then it must be leak/ and also some air in the lines.

If it was a problem with the plunger, would it be poor the first push, then build up pressure the next couple? 

These brakes are going to kill me, figuratively, but hopefully not literally.
js
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeeWilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar. 2017 at 2:27am
If you can pump up your brakes the brake shoes need adjusted and if they are spongey after pumped up you also need to bleed the air out of the system.

    Jim
47 CJ2A (Ranch Hand) 48 CJ2A, 48 Willys truck, T3C 3782, M274 (Military Mule)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jscheiner.09 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar. 2017 at 2:50am
Yeah the first brake push is usually nothing when I'm driving then if I pump it a few times it builds up. When I push the pedal to the floor it isn't stopping as quick as it should I feel.
It's slowing down but not locking up the wheels or anything if I put all my weight on the pedal.

May take it back to the mechanic and have them check everything and find if he problem is actually the MC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar. 2017 at 3:50am
Sounds like they need bleeding.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote a4cj2a77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar. 2017 at 4:30am
You said in your original post, the the brakes worked well. Was this your experience or the mechanics? It appeared to me that your master was failing according to your first post. By your last post I think that weewilly Is right that the brakes are not properly adjusted and need to be rechecked to find your leak and bleed air out. You should make sure the mechanic knows all of the symptoms that you have experienced from the time you picked up you willy's to now. That will help in his diagnosis.Is he also familiar with these brakes and their adjustments.lastly it seems the brakes are degrading with every use.
Phil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TERRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar. 2017 at 1:43pm
I would guess that most mechanics would not know the procedure for adjusting the brakes on a CJ2A.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jscheiner.09 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar. 2017 at 2:49pm
This was the mechanics experience. My experience has been this:
- when I use the brakes from a stop (sitting in my garage, I have decent brake pressure)

- when I am driving around the block, the first brake pedal push goes to the floor,  then I have to pump it up to get brake pressure

- even when I put the pedal to the floor as hard as I can it isn't the stopping power that should be happening, it is less (when I push it to the floor I assume the brakes should lock up, they are not)

- I noticed the brake problem more on a downward incline (I only say this because when I am stopped in my garage the brakes perform somewhat normal, meaning the pedal does not need to pumped to get pressure, they are already have it)

- According to the mechanic the brakes were bled, adjusted, and the leak fixed. However, when I drive it around and the pedal goes to the floor, I find new break fluid around the MC. (When I am sitting in my garage and pump the brakes and get the firm pedal, I cannot find a break leak or where it is coming from)

- The mechanic I am taking it too is familiar with Willy's brakes. 

I am hoping they will be able to pin point the problem and be able to let me know where the leak is coming from, correctly bleed the brakes, and adjust the brake shoes if necessary.



a4cj2a77 What do you mean by 'degrading with every use'?

Thank you!
js

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote a4cj2a77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar. 2017 at 3:04pm
Going back through  your post, it appears your brake issue is getting worse not better or staying the same with every post. 
Phil
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar. 2017 at 3:22pm
Has this mechanic actually driven the Jeep since he 'fixed' the brakes? Stern Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar. 2017 at 6:05pm
"I spoke with Kaiser Willys about it. And I may not have checked the free pedal travel. Which would allow the pedal to go too far, past the check valve, and let fluid go around the plunger. I am going to check this when I get home, if the pedal travel is normal and set correctly, then they said they would replace the MC. Hopefully it is just set incorrectly." 

Sounds to me like somebody's trying to blow smoke up your dress, or the guy making that statement doesn't know what he's talking about. There's no way for that to happen.

Wash the master cylinder and the surrounding area, including inside the boot, down with brake cleaner, go for a test drive, experience the problem, come back and see where the leaking fluid shows up. If it's leaking out into the boot, the master cylinder is bad. Period. I'll repeat cpt logger's second question: Omix-ADA?  BW
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jscheiner.09 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar. 2017 at 6:12pm
Yeah I originally thought i had fluid inside the boot but it is harder for me to tell. I am going to definitely mess around with it some more and see exactly where it is coming from. I wish I was able to recreate the problem just sitting in the garage, instead of having to drive around and recreate it on the road.

As soon as I start driving it happens.

JS
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote autolite Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Mar. 2017 at 8:07pm
Just a thought, but could it be leaking from the master cylinder cap vent hole due to too much fluid in it (overfill)? Take the floor board inspection cover off and apply the brakes and take a look.
willys jeep
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jscheiner.09 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar. 2017 at 1:19am
UPDATE***
I completely bled the brakes today. Could not find a leak.  Can someone clarify if this sounds right?
When I am driving, the pedal goes to the floor for the first push. The second push, the pedal is a little bit more firm, and by the last it feels very firm and I can lock up the brakes. Is it possible, each time press the brakes, the shoes are going out a little bit, and by the last pedal push they have a firm grip on the drums?

I noticed when I first was putting the brakes on months ago it did that, I had to push the pedal out a few times for the brakes to fully engage. 

This also could be happening because their could be air in the lines due to a leak around the MC I still cannot find the source of. (The leak only occurs when I am driving, not when I am under the car in the garage, having someone pump the brakes)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WeeWilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Mar. 2017 at 1:56am
   It sounds like the shoes need adjusted out because there is to much clearance between the shoes and the drum.

   Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jscheiner.09 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Mar. 2017 at 7:04pm
I randomly the master cylinder covered in fluid... left it over night and went under to look at fuel lines and mc had brake fluid all over it. 
WHY IS THIS HAPPENING?!

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