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What was your motivation?

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redrunner View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote redrunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb. 2019 at 10:03pm
I have had a 4 wheel drive for over 40 years now.  When I lived in the Black Hills I got my first 2A and always wanted another one after selling the first one.  It only took me 33 years to find the right one, buy it, fix it, finally drive it and love every second of it!    Tongue
“Life is tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2019 at 8:52am
   My brain is going to keep replaying the photo of DeYoung's shop. hahaha
looking at the jeeps on racks is like walking into Costco with racks full of Willys-goodies.   Not for the novice.   

   I grew up in a '53 willys pickup with the F134 engine. During high school, I would take it out to the honda-hills on Friday nights chasing jack rabbits, when I was supposed to be at the basketball games.
   I will die with a jeep-in-hand. My trusty CJ-7 with T-18 transmission I purchased in 1981, and now 38-years later, it sits proudly inside the shop, and carried me through the Rubicon jeep trail for over 16-years.
   Then, in December 2017, I purchased a beat-up '46 CJ2A, and so now the beat-goes-on. :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2019 at 3:54pm
Was first vehicle I ever drove mostly in the fields pulling hay
Was my grandfathers and now mine 
Kept me out of trouble as a teen spending time fixing it up even putting In some shag carpet. 
Doing the second restoration no shag carpet this time LOL
46 CJ2A 17573 Sioux Falls SD
Link to Photos of Restoration
https://flic.kr/s/aHsmuQgE9e
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2019 at 7:26pm
In winter of '71 I turned 16 and was headed to be a Mustang guy.  We had a nice 68 hardtop that I'd learned to drive in.  But Dad got a company car and sold the Mustang.  I was heart broken.  Then one day in June '72 he asked if I would be interested in getting an Army Jeep.  He'd told me stories of the things he did with Jeeps in the Korean War and that had created a fondness in me for Jeeps.  I loved being out in the forests around our home and thought an Army Jeep would be just the ticket.  So we went to a truck graveyard an hour from home to look at dead Jeeps.  There were over 50 of them in the yard.  We spent a couple hours looking them all over before we decided on the M38 we bought.  We towed it home behind the family station wagon.  My buddies joined me in the garage and it took us about 3 days to strip it all the way down so no major parts were bolted together.  It took us over 4 months to paint it blue and get it back together to where we could drive it.  The wiring was a mish-mash of old military and new scraps from what ever I could collect.  No rhyme or reason to how I wired it up.  Burned up a few small wires by putting them in places that needed bigger wires.  But we got it running that fall and had a blast driving through corn fields and woodlots.  

In college I took it with me to Colorado where I went exploring all over the state.  After college I flat towed it to my first Army assignment near Anchorage Alaska.  I drove it up there for 3 years, getting to compare it to my assigned M151.  When I returned with it from Alaska I gave it to my Dad who lived in Leadville, CO.  He and Mom took it all over in the mountains around there.  He also took all the grandkids for rides in it. I redid the wiring in it while Dad owned it. We went to visit them for Christmas when my Son was 15.  Dad gave my Son the keys and said it was his now.  He drove it through the rest of his high school days, and left it with me when he went off to college.  I didn't use it much until we moved back to Colorado.  I did a rebuild on it and began exploring the mountains around home.  

I'm still using the Blue Mule to this day, with several modifications.  It's been leading the way for dozens of other flat fender Jeeps to come each fall to join us for the annual Fall Color Tours. 
M38Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb. 2019 at 8:47am
Loved the story Mike!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 64CJ5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb. 2019 at 4:58pm
My love for Jeeps started when I walked by a flat fender Jeep every day on my way to fifth grade.  Our Sunday newspaper was delivered from a Jeep. I had an active imagination and could see myself driving a Jeep.  In 1961 I learned to drive in a neighbors GPW.  In 1963 I purchased a 1947 CJ2a and started my Jeep life.
In 1971 I married the love of my life.  She had learned to drive in her granddads CJ2a with a column shift in New Mexico.  We soon had a 1956 CJ5 that we traded for a new 1973 Daisy Yellow Cj5.  Many Jeeps later we have three Jeeps, a 1952 M38 "Popeye the Coast Guard Jeep", a blue 1964 CJ5 "Eeyore" and an orange & black 2001 TJ "Tigger".

We took the CJ5 to five Jeep Jamborees in five states.  Then I found the CJ2a page.  m38mike graciously aloud us to bring "Eeyore" to the FCT.  Oilleaker1 also welcomed us to the Black Hills Run. 
Now I have rescued "Popeye the Coast Guard Jeep" and we fit in with the other flat fender Jeeps at flat fender Jeep runs.

I did some research and found that Popeye in the early comic strips was a Coast Guard Man.  As our youngest son is a Chief Petty Officer in the Coast Guard,  the name seemed appropriate to us.

We hope to be on the trails with like minded people for many years to come.
   
64CJ5 "Eeyore"
01TJ "Tigger"
52 M38 Severely demilitarized, Now running with Pinto power. "Popeye" The Coast Guard Jeep.
To Trust Government Defys Both History and Reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bridog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb. 2019 at 11:15am
My parents drove a '77 Bronco which I wished could be mine growing up. By the time I turned 16 that wish came true, but unfortunately by then the Missouri weather and salty roads had been cruel to the body and I was less than enthused to to fix rust for what would be the third time. After selling it I began to become interested in a four wheel drive vehicle with way less body...a Jeep. A trip to Ouray, CO over Christmas break in '93 sealed the deal. Watching a local resident scampering around the small snow covered town in a flattie with no heater, doors, or even a top really entertained me. After leaving Ouray we stopped at Wal Mart in Montrose, CO to pick up a few supplies and just happened to park next to a nice AMC era CJ5. After a parking lot conversation with it's owner we went inside and added a Chilton's Jeep repair manual to our list of supplies for the trip home. I studied that manual all the way home picking out the perfect model Jeep to use as both a trail rig and a daily driver. Two months later I purchased a '76 CJ5, took it apart the same day, and then spent the next 14 months rebuilding it. That Jeep underwent a lot of changes over the next 10 years, but as far as the DMV is concerned it is the same Jeep I currently drive and the only Jeep I have ever owned. I am pretty sure the only parts still on Blueberry from that original CJ5 are the headlights and the tailgate.

Looking way back though if I had to identify a motivational moment that lead me to the Jeep I drive today and the trails we attempt to conquer it would again take me back to Ouray, CO. This time we were on the Yankee Boy Basin Trail in the 77' Bronco and was unsuccessful at traversing a section of the trail that was eroded. That moment stuck with me and later on Yankee Boy Basin was one of the first trails that nearly stock 76' CJ5 took us to the top of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb. 2019 at 11:55am
I've owned Ol' Red for fifty years this coming April.

I had just got out of the Army in December 1968 after spending two tours in Vietnam. One Saturday in April 1969 my kid brother was reading the want ads in the newspaper and told me that there was a jeep for sale and insisted that we go look at it. I was doubtful.

It was the most pitiful looking Bubba-fied ride I had ever seen. The left front frame horn had been crushed in at least an inch, which gave the whole jeep a pitch to the right. The tires were worn out to the point of missing some tread. The owner (an oil production company) had taken the stern half of an old boat and knocked the transom out of the back and attached it upside down on the windshield as a makeshift top. The seats were worn out VW seats. The wiring was an absolute mess.

It did start and run. Of course, it did pop out of second gear. The transfer case whined even in high range. The speedometer wasn't hooked up so there was no way to know how many miles it had actually been driven. It had been used by the owner mostly off-road to check on oil leases for twenty years and had spent the last three years parked out back of the oil company shop. The rear section of the floor was caved in at least an inch from heavy tools being thrown in the back for twenty years. It had been rolled at least once. The windshield frame had been welded on several times, and not too carefully at that.

I had driven M-151's in Vietnam and enjoyed the ride. The way it's sad headlamps looked at me...I was hooked.

The owner wanted $500 for it and I offered $450. We settled on $475 because the owner pointed out that it had a brand new battery.

The Boat-Roof came off on the way home at a local scrap yard. With that removed, it already looked more respectable.

Over the years, the mashed up frame was replaced by a brand new M-38 frame I ordered from an auto parts company in Kansas City (since out of business) and it was shipped from the Philippines. (MD Juan, perhaps???) The seats were replaced by Mustang buckets. New tires were a must. Wiring was replaced. A Delco alternator was installed and the wiring was modified considerably. A right hand tail light was added.

I drove it on a mostly regular basis until 1995 when because of financial circumstances I had to move. It stayed in my mothers garage until 2015. She offered the space and still had the use of the other half of the garage. Over the years, things got stacked on the jeep to where you could hardly tell there was a jeep under the mess.

After inheriting my mothers house, I decided that I would either sell it or restore it. I couldn't part with it, so began two years of restoration work.

The original engine threw a rod after losing oil pressure suddenly in the early 70's. So the replacement was a Sears rebuilt engine. It had only 5200 miles on it when I started the restoration.

The bodywork required, I knew I didn't have the knowledge or skills to do, so a new steel CJ-2A body was next. The old body was sold through the CJ-2A Forum for $500 F.O.B. southeast Kansas to a genleman in New York state. The transmission still needed some work so I went through the tranny. The transfer case rebuild was a collection of NOS parts that I had rat-holed away during my time as a driveline mechanic in the 1980's. New wiring harnesses, new OEM style seats. New windshield. Rebuilt brakes. New clutch. New instruments. New OEM air cleaner.

Ol' Red gets driven on almost every decent day. She doesn't have a top yet, so it is more or less a fair weather rig.

When I bought her in 1969, four wheel drive equipment was relatively rare in southeast Kansas. Nowadays, every hotdog owns something that is four wheel drive...but not like Ol' Red. Everyone waves at me when I drive it anywhere...everyone wants a ride...

I wouldn't trade Ol' Red for the $15,000 I have in her restoration...it's only money, but she is an honest-to-God flatfender...not a wanna be!



   
46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red"



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snave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote snave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb. 2019 at 7:57pm
What a neat thread! Knew the first time I saw it, we would have to post something. 
When we have our Rockfest every year, we have a clipboard out there for people to fill out. The only question is, "tell us about the first time you were in a Jeep" (or something close). The answers are varied and awesome. Anywhere from "as a kid" to "my boyfriend had this old Jeep". 
My father was a mechanic/welder so I was raised as a gearhead. Not particularly talented but interested. 
I built my first Jeep when I was around 13 or so. It was half as long, half as wide and half as tall. It was in essence one fourth size as a real Jeep. That point got argued a lot, so I know what you are thinking. It had a one inch square tubing frame, 8 inch wheels and a lawn mower transmission. Managed to buy a new 5 horse Briggs engine for it. It had a lot of other stuff from an old "Opal" car such as steering and brakes. I even made a two speed transmission for it. Imagine the "workmanship". Sold it before Sue and I got married. Have been trying to find it for many years but the trail went cold years ago. 
When I was 16, I built a glass body dune buggy. Imagine how safe that was! Traded it for a '42 GPW. Six cylinder, 170 Comet motor and all, got us up Antero 50 years ago. 
Even though we had some years with Broncos (see Brian's post above) we got back into Jeeps as he said in the early nineties. Haven't looked back and we ALL Love it. 
Rojo is our most recent Jeep and we enjoy it tremendously. Mostly we Love wheelin with our family and friends. 
A little side note to Brian's post. The Chiltons repair manual was the small version, cost us $7.95.
That book got us back on the Jeep track and a fair amount of friends as well. We jokingly say that little book cost us and our friends several hundred thousand dollars. Sounds "far fetched' until you do the math. 
Thanks for the time and the cool thread! Look forward to many other "motivational stories".


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb. 2019 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A wrote:



Over the years, the mashed up frame was replaced by a brand new M-38 frame I ordered from an auto parts company in Kansas City (since out of business) and it was shipped from the Philippines.
   


If that auto parts company was Mid-America Auto parts, chances are very good your new frame was an original Midland Willys frame.

Mid America was the source of all the export model 44 10 spline front and rear axles for flat fenders that were available till about 1995?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeepFever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb. 2019 at 10:05pm
Originally posted by snave snave wrote:

 
 . .  Mostly we Love wheelin with our family and friends. . . 
 
 
That is definitely one of the biggest motivations  . .   from the beginning it was always about the fun we had with friends and family.       For me it started with the local wheeling with friends as a high-schooler . .  later in life I took my nearly stock (except for engine) '2A on my first Jeep Jamboree in Murphy NC.   Not only were the trails like nothing I had seen before,  but the comradery and friendship of Jeepers was very infectious.   I attended at least one Jamboree-type event each year for 15 years after that.  First with a good friend,  then later including my sons as they got older. 
 
Jeeping is fun . . especially with others  
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb. 2019 at 10:12pm
OK, I guess I gotta do this. Beware - long story follows! Big smile

  When I was a young Boy Scout, 11 or 12, (this would be 1961-62) in Buena Vista, Colorado, someone got the idea that the Scout troop could go into the woods and cut Christmas trees to sell as a fund raiser. On the appointed day, we started out with a 1954 (+/-) Ford farm truck, a model A pickup pulling a two-wheeled trailer, and a jeep. I don't know much about the jeep except it was old, had flat fenders and a hard top. We had 3 or 4 adults and a bunch of Boy Scouts. We didn't get far - even before the road became a trail, we found a rock about the size of a VW Beetle in the middle of the road. All of the Scouts and adults were not able to budge it. One of the adults proceeded to destroy an axe by using it as a sledge hammer to try to bust the rock. When the boys became restless and started to wander about, the Scoutmaster decided that we needed to either turn back, which no one really wanted to do, or go on the best we could. The jeep was able to get around the rock, so we hand-pushed the trailer around it and hooked it to the jeep. We left the truck and the model A there and went on. The jeep was full of scouts, the trailer was full of scouts, and we had two scouts riding on the hood of the jeep with their feet resting on the bumper. I was one of the scouts on the hood. I guess that's when I fell in love with the famous Willys Jeep fan whir, and the sound of the transfer case singing its song. As we went on, the snow got so deep that it would often come over the bumper and push our feet off of the bumper, but that little jeep loaded with adults and scouts went on. I was more than a little bit impressed. We got to the tree-cutting site with very little trouble.
   As an aside - there were no Christmas-tree-sized trees in the area of our destination, what do we do now? No problem, I climbed a tall tree with a bow saw and cut the top off. What Fun! Climbing high into the sky to cut the tops off of pine trees! To this day, the Forest Service wonders why trees in the area have flat tops instead of being pointed like pine trees should be. LOL  Right Mike? Wink
  We wound up with the trailer piled high with Christmas trees, and trees piled high on top of the hard top on the jeep. Now the inside of the jeep was full of adults and the hood was the only place for scouts to ride so we took turns. The rest of the time most of the scouts helped to push the jeep and trailer down the trail , but not much pushing was needed. When we got back to the rock we hand-carried the trees around to the truck, the jeep pulled the trailer around the rock, and we went home. We didn't have as many trees as we would have liked to have, but we had a good time, and we made a few dollars for the troop.
  My love for the jeep was set in stone that day, as surely as that big rock blocked the road. I knew that some day I would have a jeep, and a flat-fender at that.
  Fast-forward a bit, to 1970-71 when I worked for my Uncle Sam, and spent most of my time driving the CO's M151A1 or a Kaiser deuce-anna-half for the supply sargent. I spent a lot of my idle time trying to figure out how I could have a jeep (I never heard them called "mutts" until well after I got out) for my own after my commitment would be over. I would still like to have one. One of them never killed me, although I gave them plenty of chances. Big smile
  My first jeep of my own was an M38A1, a basket-case that was missing about one basketful of parts. I bought a CJ3B for parts at a farm auction, and wound up using the A1 for parts to repair the 3B. As Pop said, "You really wanted a flat-fender jeep anyway." I have little use for a "round-fender" today.
  Now I have the jeep that my Uncle Linden owned when my Dad worked for him on the farm when I was a little kid, years before the Boy-Scout Christmas-tree ordeal. I was very young and don't remember it much, but I'm surely glad to have it. How that came to be is another story.
  I'm not young anymore, and I don't know how much longer I can keep having fun, but one thing is for sure - those old jeeps are sure as heck helping me to enjoy life!     BW
  
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb. 2019 at 10:30pm
Great story, Bruce!  I think the statute of limitations has run out on the flat-top trees.  LOL
There's a reason it's called Ol' Unreliable
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Feb. 2019 at 10:55pm
I guess I'm another one of those that's going with the short version (or shortest I can make it) and hoping to update it later as I get time.

In the early 1950's my dad worked on a heads-up night vision system for the M38 at Fort Belvoir. He apparently decided right then and there he would own an old "Army Jeep" someday. In 1975 He found a 1944 Willys MB advertised in the Norwalk Hour newspaper for $600. It was in Rowayton Connecticut, and had been used for 5-10 years to deliver newspapers. Previous to that, it belonged to the Hanes Concrete Block company in Stamford. It had no rust, but was almost undriveable due to steering slop, a worn out T84, and burned valves from trying to drive at 65 mph up and down I95.


Prior to him bringing it home, I'm not actually sure I had ever heard of a Jeep, or four wheel drive for that matter. We had a 64 Corvair Convertible and a 66 Grand Prix at the time. And what the heck was a transfer case???


Anyway, I helped him work on it. I then turned 16 and asked to drive it to school. He said no. So by the time he got back from his next business trip, I had 3 in the backyard. My first was a 1949 CJ3A. It was apparently used to plow the lot at a Junkyard in Chicopee Mass. It's been over 40 years and I still remember the sellers name was Harold W. Cote. The Jeep was not very straight to say the least. I recall parking it between 2 Oak trees in the neighbors yard and using a bottle jack and 4x4 lumber to straighten the body.

(That is the brown 1949 CJ3A that now lives at Mike's thirsty dirt ranch)


I had more time than money or sense, so I kept going through the bargain hunter and trading times publications and bought 10 Jeeps the first year for a grand total of $1000. I think in 1976 I bought every CJ2A and CJ3A for sale in Connecticut.


Working on the Jeeps (initially with my dad) gave me the chance to learn how to work with sheetmetal, weld, paint, rebuild engines, transmissions, axles, and change tires. Although I eventually became a Mechanical Engineer working in the auto industry in the midwest, it was the 'hands-on' experience in knowing how things work that helped me stay employed and to feed my family.

I spent summers driving the old Willys through the Granville State Forest, and the Colebrook River Reservoir area.


When raising kids and pursuing a career kept me out of the garage, I dabbled in learning early Jeep history. I'm hoping when I retire I'll have time to work on a few of the Jeeps that followed me home over the years. Although my dad's original 44 MB was sold to someone in Long Island, I have his 42 MB and 54 M170 to enjoy with the kids and grand kids.
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My addiction began watching WW2 movies and Rat Patrol. I wanted a WW2 Jeep bad. I mowed lawns, shoveled snow, stacked hay, and did just about everything I could to save up money to buy a Jeep. I would drool over the old flatties during the early days of the Black Hills 4 wheel drive club events. I even rode to the top of Harney Peak when a concession "Jeep To Harney Peak" was allowed. The Scouts and Broncos of the day were faster and more comfortable, but just weren't cool. 

Not only TV had helped with the motivation, but at a younger age of 7, I was walking up a alley in Cedar Rapids , Iowa and was stopped cold. There was a Willys Jeep parked next to a garage. The old guy who owned it came out and noticed me drooling over it. It just had that look. He asked if I would like to ride down the hill to get his mail with him. I did. I liked it. 

My day came at 13 years old.  I had $305.00 dollars saved and a 1948 Red CJ2A came up for sale for $300.00. It was all mine. I had to drive it in a field among aspen trees for a few months before I turned 14 and got my restricted drivers permit. 

I kept that Jeep until I graduated from high school and needed a car to drive to college. I think I tried everything possible in a Willys Jeep by the end of my relationship with it. I still think of it. If I knew where it was, I would buy it back. 

Once you own one, and love it, you will never be able to get Jeep out of your blood. it's fatal. Wink
Green Disease, Jeeps, Old Iron!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2019 at 10:54am
Originally posted by Joe Friday Joe Friday wrote:

Originally posted by SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A wrote:



Over the years, the mashed up frame was replaced by a brand new M-38 frame I ordered from an auto parts company in Kansas City (since out of business) and it was shipped from the Philippines.
   


If that auto parts company was Mid-America Auto parts, chances are very good your new frame was an original Midland Willys frame.

Mid America was the source of all the export model 44 10 spline front and rear axles for flat fenders that were available till about 1995?


It was Mid-America Auto Parts. I only had to make one modification to make the engine fit. Of course you know that that would be the left hand motor mount had to be relocated. If I had it to do over today I would have just replaced the front engine plate. I didn't know that at the time.

Anyway, even though the M-38 frame isn't CJ-2A original, most people don't know that and only a true flatfender fanatic could spot the modification and know what was done.

46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red"



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2019 at 12:47pm
Originally posted by Oilleaker1 Oilleaker1 wrote:

....  The Scouts and Broncos of the day were faster and more comfortable, but just weren't cool....

I suppose I could pretend to take offense at that statement (although I also suppose doing so on a flatfender Jeep site might be frowned upon Wink).  But honestly I agree with it.  With my Bronco now being 48 years old I would say that it's cool now.  But even though the '75 CJ5 I used to have was newer and (arguably) more common than a '71 Bronco, driving it with the top and doors off was just so much more fun than driving my Bronco (I often take the soft top off, but the hard doors always are on).  As I've said on here before, I can't see giving up my Bronco (it's just too good at what I have it for, family 'wheeling), but I sure hope to get another Jeep some day.  And since I already have the practical family 'wheeler, getting something older and smaller than that CJ5 is more thinkable than it used to be.  And who doesn't think a flatfender is cooler than a CJ5!
Bob

Flatfender wannabe
'71 Ford Bronco
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Joined: 06 Sep. 2011
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2019 at 12:50pm
Don't feel bad. I own a Scout also. Wink
Green Disease, Jeeps, Old Iron!
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