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A Winch in a Pinch

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47 deuce alpha View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 47 deuce alpha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2018 at 4:26am
Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:


I'd be hesitant to do that.  They REALLY don't recommend looping a tow strap over a ball due to the possibility of breaking the ball off and turning it into a projectile.  I know a winch would be a more steady pull (little / no impact).  But a stretchy recovery strap doesn't put a lot of impact either.  It'd probably work OK (especially with a relatively low force winch).  But I think I'd stay away from anchoring to the ball.

I don't know who they is that don't recommend pulling with a tow strap looped over the ball but I would have to see hard facts before I would worry about snapping a 2" solid ball off. I definitely see one of these worm drive winches in my future. It is just too simple not to have one. Very light, easy to carry, easy to store.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2018 at 11:40am
Originally posted by Nothing Special Nothing Special wrote:

I'd be hesitant to do that.  They REALLY don't recommend looping a tow strap over a ball due to the possibility of breaking the ball off and turning it into a projectile.  I know a winch would be a more steady pull (little / no impact).  But a stretchy recovery strap doesn't put a lot of impact either.  It'd probably work OK (especially with a relatively low force winch).  But I think I'd stay away from anchoring to the ball.


Really?

Of course, YMMV, but I often throw a strap or a chain over a trailer hitch ball to move objects around the farm. I have pulled out stubborn stumps as well as moved five ton trucks this way. A lot of jerking is used to pull stumps.  No issues with a ball breaking off. Bent & broken frames are another matter. but no ball issues. BTW, the main ball I use is an old 1-7/8" ball on a one ton truck's draw-bar.

I have used a trailer hitch set up for an electric winch on this same truck to recover other pickups & to pull small logs up a bank. One has to watch the angle that the line is pulling at. If the load is too far below, or above, being level with the Jeep's frame, the hitch may pop off of the ball. That gets ugly fast! AMHIK! For this reason, I did away with the trailer hitch ball pivot.

This brings me to ask, Who is this "they" & do "they" have any good reason to say this. An engineering report would be in order as far as that goes.

My guess is that someone pulled it out of thin air. An urban legend perhaps? Another guess is that some lawyer decided to CYA for his company. Which was perhaps, a trailer hitch ball manufacturer? In China?

Think about it, if these balls shear off so easily, do we really want millions of them pulling big loads on our freeways? Would you not expect the DOT to put the kabash on this unsafe practice? I would! There is a reason that they do not.

IMHO, This is a non-issue. I would guess that the Jeep's frame is a weaker link than the ball is.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2018 at 12:47pm
I thought about it more last night and I have a plan.  I'm going with the shackle hitch idea.  I'm going to pick up another Harbor Freight ATV hitch. 




I'll cut the 3-sided square receiver part off one of them.  That will leave me with a identical thick flat piece to use as the lower part of the shackle.  I'll cut a piece of steel about the same thickness as the draw bar to space the two thick pieces for a slip fit over the draw bar.  Then weld it all together, it should be a fun little welding project.  Kind of hard to explain, but I hope you'all follow. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2018 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by cpt logger cpt logger wrote:

Really?
Of course, YMMV, but I often throw a strap or a chain over a trailer hitch ball to move objects around the farm. I have pulled out stubborn stumps as well as moved five ton trucks this way. A lot of jerking is used to pull stumps.  No issues with a ball breaking off. Bent & broken frames are another matter. but no ball issues. BTW, the main ball I use is an old 1-7/8" ball on a one ton truck's draw-bar.
 
I have used a trailer hitch set up for an electric winch on this same truck to recover other pickups & to pull small logs up a bank. One has to watch the angle that the line is pulling at. If the load is too far below, or above, being level with the Jeep's frame, the hitch may pop off of the ball. That gets ugly fast! AMHIK! For this reason, I did away with the trailer hitch ball pivot.
This brings me to ask, Who is this "they" & do "they" have any good reason to say this. An engineering report would be in order as far as that goes.
My guess is that someone pulled it out of thin air. An urban legend perhaps? Another guess is that some lawyer decided to CYA for his company. Which was perhaps, a trailer hitch ball manufacturer? In China?
Think about it, if these balls shear off so easily, do we really want millions of them pulling big loads on our freeways? Would you not expect the DOT to put the kabash on this unsafe practice? I would! There is a reason that they do not.
 
IMHO, This is a non-issue. I would guess that the Jeep's frame is a weaker link than the ball is.
 
(and also in reply to 47 deuce alpha)
 
"They" is just about every magazine article I've ever read about off-road recovery in the past 40 years.  Do "they" know what they are talking about?  I don't know.  Maybe someone made something up once and every magazine writer since has parroted it.
 
Is it really a bad idea?  I don't know.  I'm a mechanical engineer, and while I've never felt like running an FEA on it, it doesn't look like it would be that weak to me either (although it's the 5/8" - 1" shank that you need to be looking at, not the 1 7/8" - 2" ball).
 
Yes, people have jerked stumps out by hooking chains over trailer hitch balls and avoided killing someone in the process.  But I still go back to what I said originally.  Using a trailer hitch ball for recovery is widely condemned, and I'd be hesitant to do it.  And like I also said originally, in this case, with a winch rather than a recovery strap (so likely no shock loads) and only a 2000 lb winch at that, it'd probably work.  But it's not hard to set it up in a way that is widely approved, so I'd stay away from anchoring to the ball.
 
And as far as comparing towing a trailer to a recovery operation, there's no comparison.  Recovery involves highly stressed cables, chains or straps.  If something breaks the cable/chain/strap will turn things like trailer hitch balls into projectiles.  That doesn't happen when something breaks while towing.  And the DOT does seem to expect parts to break occasionally.  At least they require safety chains and breakaway brakes.
Bob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2018 at 6:59pm
Fellas - this is a good healthy discussion, and I'm learning a lot.  I'll add that I'm a navy combat systems safety engineer by trade (after retiring from the navy 20 years ago).  So risk factors, causal factors and hazards are part of my daily routine.  With that in mind, I'm all about being safe.  While the ball hitch is probably safe for my use, I think the heavy duty shackle style mount would be the best for my application.  Since I like to fabricate things and have a well equipped home shop, I"m going to see what I can come up with. 

I appreciate your thoughts and advice, keep it coming.

Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 47 deuce alpha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2018 at 8:35pm
Pardon my skepticism, It’s just that in 50 plus years of pulling trailers of many types I never heard of breaking a trailer ball until this post. I have heard of (and in some cases have seen) broken hitches, receivers, bumpers, tongues, and anything else you can tear up on a trailer, just never a trailer ball. Perhaps someone on the forum has a personal experience they could share with us.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2018 at 9:42pm
Originally posted by 47 deuce alpha 47 deuce alpha wrote:

Pardon my skepticism, It’s just that in 50 plus years of pulling trailers of many types I never heard of breaking a trailer ball until this post. I have heard of (and in some cases have seen) broken hitches, receivers, bumpers, tongues, and anything else you can tear up on a trailer, just never a trailer ball. Perhaps someone on the forum has a personal experience they could share with us.   
 
Take my input for what you think it's worth.  I've never seen a ball fail either, but I've read dozens of times that they shouldn't be used for a recovery point.  (Oh, and rules for many organized trail runs are another source of this "wisdom".  Many clubs require recovery points front and rear and a hitch ball doesn't count, but a receiver with a drawbar holding a clevis does count.)
 
And as I introduced this to being with, "they say...".  I know I don't have solid evidence backing this up.  I know there's a chance that it's not well-founded.  But it's so easy to do it in different ways that are widely accepted that I choose to use a different way.
 
Feel free to do it however you want.
Bob

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2018 at 11:31pm

I'd start here to understand that all hitch balls are not created equal.

These are STATIC loads, and dynamic loads due to jerk straps can be 5-10 times higher.

I have broken 2 hitch balls in the last 35 years using them with tow straps and chains.
One was a solid ball that took a bolt thru from below. The other was a hollow ball like most 1-7/8 with a bolt thru from above and a nut below.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 July 2018 at 1:22am
I made some good progress on the shackle style receiver mount for the winch. I bought two more ATV hitches (about $10 each). I cut the square tubing off one, that left me with a 1/2" thick plate that is the mirror image of the other hitch plate. The draw bar is 3/8" thick, so I cut sections of 3/8" square stock to space the two plates apart. After a bit more fitting, grinding and testing, it has a nice slip fit on the draw bar and a good bit of swing left/right. I got it tacked together tonight with the MIG. Tomorrow I'll stick weld it with E6011, it should be rock solid after that.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 July 2018 at 7:47pm
The rear winch shackle mount is finished. It came out quite well. It's much stronger now and it has plenty of side to side swing. Thanks for all the help guys. Next up will be to come up with a way to mount it on the front with similar side to side flexibility.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheelie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2018 at 2:31am
 The only reason I ever came up with for not using a ball for pulling with a chain or strap is the possibility of said chain or strap coming off of the ball. Off camber or elevation differences, etc. Same reason they started putting the little spring clip things on tow hooks. 

I never even considered the possibility of breaking the ball and have never seen it happen. 

Just my .02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 July 2018 at 4:13am
I've read about it happening and have seen pics of the hole in somebody's windshield and seat headrest where the ball went through.  I think it was in Four Wheeler about 25 years ago.


Edited by Ol' Unreliable - 14 July 2018 at 4:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flatfender Ben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Aug. 2018 at 4:46am

Originally posted by ndnchf ndnchf wrote:

The rear winch shackle mount is finished. It came out quite well. It's much stronger now and it has plenty of side to side swing. Thanks for all the help guys. Next up will be to come up with a way to mount it on the front with similar side to side flexibility.



Winch mount came out great. 
Very clean work Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gunslinger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Aug. 2018 at 3:20pm
Yup,
Gonna build one of those!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug. 2018 at 9:21am
Thanks guys. I still need to come up with a similar mount for the front of the jeep, but have been sidetracked lately.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkamonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Aug. 2018 at 10:33am
Go where you want to go with it. One of my jeeps has an 8000 lb Koenig PTO and the other has an old Warn M6000. I'm just pleased as I can be because both of them work as they are supposed to work. Actually, either of them probably will pull a lot more than what they are rated at.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep. 2018 at 8:20pm
Since it's rainy and crappy out (the outer fringes of hurricane Florence), I decided to tackle a front mount for the winch. 

Bubba has been to the front bumper area before me. There must have been either a snow plow or winch of some kind in an earlier life. It's been beefed up and a heavy bracket runs front to back in the center. This already had a couple half inch holes. So I took a 2" wide piece of 3/8" plate and bolted it to that center brace with grade 8 bolts. The other end overhangs the bumper and allows the pivoting winch mount to attach via a 3/4" hitch pin, the same way it does on the rear draw bar. It's nothing fancy, but considering the limited capacity of the winch, it will work in a pinch! 



A side note on drilling large holes. As I'm sure you all know, drilling large holes in steel can be a challenge in the home shop. Not long ago I read on a tool forum about the Rotobroach tool. So I ordered a kit that cuts holes up to 3/4". It just so happens I needed to drill two 1/2" and one 3/4" hole in this 3/8" plate. I set up the rotobroach and it bored through it like butter. I highly recommend it. Here is the 3/4" hole after I was done.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkamonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep. 2018 at 8:56pm
It all looks decent to me. My 3B has a Koenig 8,000 lb PTO winch on it and a PO welded a length of 3/4 inch grader blade on the bumper. I really don't know how I could destroy that thing.
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