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Balloon tires for sand

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Mark W. View Drop Down
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    Posted: 18 June 2018 at 4:29am
Has anyone here any experience with Balloon tires for use on Sand?

When I was a kid and my dad and his buddies would head to What is called Sand Lake here in Oregon (dry beach sand dunes) some of them would run tires on way to wide of wheels to have flotation on the sand. As tires with off road tread tend to bury you as soon as they spin.

Next year some time I will have a set of street tread P-235/75R 15's coming off my pickup (same size I plan on using with my 6" wheels on CHUG) I was thinking about getting a set of Radial Tubes for these and mounting them on 8-10" wheels (3.75" back spacing) For use in sand. The tubes would allow me to run them at a lower pressure while still holding the bead.

Anyone out there ever do the same?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2018 at 5:02am
If you look at the old Military prototype photos from Aberdeen, they used a 30" diameter 13" tires for flotation on sand. This tire eventually was adopted for use on Coast Guard Jeeps.

It was really popular in the 40's to early 70's  to run either surplus aircraft tires or front farm tires on the dunes. Typically I  now run 31x10.50R15LT Load Range C tires on my 3B on the beach. I have 2 identical sets, one set on 7" wheels, one on 10" wide wheels. The narrower wheel is better for the East Coast sand I run on. I run 8-10 PSI. Highway tread pattern (Ribby) is better than all terrain. MT's are very poor.

I suspect for dunes the wider rim may be better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leecarr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2018 at 2:42pm
I used to run the beaches in the Mass alot, big fat half worn out radials with 5-10 psi worked real good, just a plain passenger car tread. An automatic transmission is way better in soft sand too. 

Edited by leecarr - 18 June 2018 at 2:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spinnas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2018 at 2:45pm
As these rigs don't have big power, a street/car tire tread that's wider is perfect. Something like a 31x10.50 would be a good choice. I know Mickey Thompson made some 13.50 and 15.50 short tires in about a 31 but depends on how crazy you want to go. You are looking in the right direction for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leecarr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2018 at 2:55pm
The narrower rim gives you more squish out, I used to pull F250s off the beach with my f head CJ5, they had narrow truck tires with about 80 psi. They thought because they had fed they could go anywhere, a little common sense will get you further. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2018 at 5:54pm
Back in the day Dick Cepek used to sell what were basically farm wagon tires as "flotation" tires for sand.  They were pretty wide (not sure of the height) but the big thing was that they had a round cross-section.  Edges tend to dig in, which is great if you're trying to get a "bite" for traction, but not if you're trying to stay on top of soft stuff.
 
If your tires have sharp edges you can round them off some by airing down (probably the biggest reason airing down in sand helps, although the increase contact patch is helpful too).
 
Cepek's "flotation" tires (like farm wagon tires) also had only straight ribbed tread.  That was also probably helpful in keeping the tire from digging down when it spun (but not great for propelling the vehicle forward).
 
With that as a baseline, as others have said above, passenger car radials make pretty good sand tires.  Especially aired down a little they will have a very round edge, and the tread will be very mild, so less digging down as they spin.
 
Big footprint helps too.  Get the widest, tallest tire that doesn't mess you up in other ways (not fitting, rubbing in turns, hurting your final drive ratio).  But corners (none) and tread (mild if any) will go a long way in sand, even with smallish tires.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2018 at 7:09pm
When I said East coast sand, I forgot we had some members in the area. 
The sand I was actually referring to is the stretch of Great Point from Wauwinet to Great point, and the soft stuff along Coatue.

I also believed that the rounded tread of the bias farm tire was an advantage, so I ran some tests.

If you were to own an All Wheel Drive vehicle and destroyed one of your 4 tires, they would tell you you needed to buy 4 so you can match diameters and not destroy your viscous coupling. Your only choice was to buy one new tire and have it shaved down to match the diameters of the used ones. That shaving was done on a machine like the one in the second picture below. It is a revised version of the machine in the second picture but the pantographing arms are set for a flatter tread radius. first picture is also a version that is designed to roll up to a commercial truck tire and 'true' the tire/wheel assembly  on the truck to reduce vibration. That is the machine I have. I set it on Jack stands and shave the tires on the balancer spindle.

Anyway, I had an old set of 31X10.50R15 Wrangler AT that were destroyed by excess toe in.
I decided to shave them to as small a radius as I could, and even moved the machine itself side to side to make a very round tread. To my surprise, it was worse than the unshaved flat tread of an identical set for sand flotation.

Not being fully satisfied with the result, I then painted the whole tread with grey paint, and shaved the tire down to 1/64th remaining non-skid. So the tire looked like it had a tread pattern but was for all practical purposes bald.  The flatter tread radius with no tread elements wasn't as big an advantage on the sand as I expected, but the steering effort on dry pavement (CJ3B with stock Ross box) made it undriveable. (I painted it so it would look like it had a tread pattern so I wouldn't get ticketed driving in town)

So if you have a choice, use a 31x10 instead of a P235. If you have 16" wheels, the 215/85R16 gives you a very long footprint which is helpful.

If I can find them, I'll post photos and video of me towing a CJ7 with 35" BFG Mud terrains. He couldn't make it 10 feet past the pavement in Wauwinet. He was a bit upset since they wouldn't refund his $125 Sand Permit, and the Jeep wouldn't move any direction but DOWN when he put it in gear.






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leecarr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 June 2018 at 7:55pm
That's a serious machine, I used to run  Sandy Neck in  Sandwich a lot years ago, Nauset and Plymouth Long Beach once in a while, Sandwich was the closest. We knew all the back road short cuts so we could avoid most of the traffic, all housing developments now. Your best deal is to go to your local used tire guy and get a set of the biggest half worn out passenger car radials that will fit your rims. I used to run 5-10 psi on an F150 with stock rims and never lost a bead, probably just luck though. I put a compressor setup in it so I air up anywhere. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blademaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 June 2018 at 9:58pm
Run around in all kinds of sand, powder dry, wet and hard, to a sandy river that probably has more water than sand. Flotation is the key which means wider. These little jeeps aren't heavy, which with the right tires make them perfect for idling around sand, on flat ground....A dune or a tall hill of soft sand....maybe horsepower and a paddle tire is better. Had a lot of faith in worn out all terrains and some wide street tires, never had to spin a tire. Always wanted to try some 10/ 15 farm implement tires though.   Trying some swamper trxus sts 31 11.5 this time...might have to put em on my truck and wear them out a bit first.. remember...sand gets into everything!   My two cents

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2018 at 1:23am
The 10-15 Farm tires would work very well on the powder stuff.

The Swampers will sink like a rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatfender47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 June 2018 at 3:12pm
I ran Armstong 11.00-15 Hi Way Flotation tires (floats) for 10 years or more in the 70's, on and off road.
Cross grooved them too.
Great tire even in the desert.
Had them on 10" wide and 15" wide wheels.
Kinda the tire of choice along with Tru Tracs back then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ol' Unreliable Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 June 2018 at 3:09am
Originally posted by flatfender47 flatfender47 wrote:

Kinda the tire of choice along with Tru Tracs back then.


That's only because better tires weren't available.  I looked.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 June 2018 at 3:16am
Originally posted by flatfender47 flatfender47 wrote:

I ran Armstong 11.00-15 Hi Way Flotation tires (floats) for 10 years or more in the 70's, on and off road.

Good trick. Kinda like, "I spent a week in Nebraska one day." LOL  BW
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flatfender47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 June 2018 at 7:41am
Originally posted by Ol' Unreliable Ol' Unreliable wrote:

Originally posted by flatfender47 flatfender47 wrote:

Kinda the tire of choice along with Tru Tracs back then.


That's only because better tires weren't available.  I looked.

Really ?

Armstrong Norseman
Armstrong Tru Trac
Winston Fun n Mud
Stagger Blocks (who made those ?)

The list can go on and on......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cjbilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 June 2018 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by Spinnas Spinnas wrote:

As these rigs don't have big power, a street/car tire tread that's wider is perfect. Something like a 31x10.50 would be a good choice. I know Mickey Thompson made some 13.50 and 15.50 short tires in about a 31 but depends on how crazy you want to go. You are looking in the right direction for sure.


I would think something like this might be do-able for off-road use ONLY. I remember years ago, Goodyear made a set that was DOT approved.


Edited by cjbilly - 21 June 2018 at 6:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 June 2018 at 7:33pm
Too much tread I would think.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeeper50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 June 2018 at 11:08pm
That tread tire was a Goodyear Terra tire made back in the 70s, great sand tire for lightweight jeeps, they wore out quick on the street. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 June 2018 at 12:45am
Some guys used to use aircraft tires - balloon tires with ribs used on STOL airplanes. These worked pretty well.
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