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Building a Universal Modified

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anvil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr. 2018 at 3:20pm
I may have missed it, but what are you running for your front automatic?
A good anvil does not fear the hammer.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr. 2018 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by Anvil Anvil wrote:

I may have missed it, but what are you running for your front automatic?
Detroit.

Originally posted by Anvil Anvil wrote:

....A Detroit up front definitely increases steering effort with the hubs locked in my experience......

What were you running in the rear? Open or automatic?

Edited by jpet - 10 Apr. 2018 at 4:13pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Apr. 2018 at 9:14pm
Wow!
4 days to read this all the way through.
Mind blown.
Thank you for sharing this wild ride JPET.
I will continue to follow this and consider what I might do to my humble, stock early 46.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anvil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr. 2018 at 12:03am
I'm sure I answered this earlier, but it was Detroits front & rear.  I like them, just don't think I'd want them in a manual steer vehicle.  Metcalf's argument is persuasive, though.  I twisted a rear driveshaft off of that rig once and had to drive it home on the front axle.  I don't remember it being a problem but it was a long time ago.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr. 2018 at 12:20am
Originally posted by Anvil Anvil wrote:

I'm sure I answered this earlier, but it was Detroits front & rear. ...
You did sorry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr. 2018 at 1:24pm
... more changes:

To keep my shackles from inverting, I changed out my front shackle plates to 3-1/4" between centers to match my rear. The old ones were 2-1/2" which is 1/4" shorter than stock.



..... then I added some hardware so that I can use my front winch as a suck down winch to help with the unloading affect I get when climbing:



The hause is a piece of 3/4" tubing heated and bent. I left it wide in case I want to use a limit strap later.

Sucked down:



... when I get 10" shocks up front, I'll be able to suck it down more.

I'll probably add some sort of fairlead system underneath so that I can run the winch cable below the bumper. Not sure yet.

Thanks for reading.

Edited by jpet - 13 Apr. 2018 at 2:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr. 2018 at 3:28pm
I thought I had heard it all but now it seems Bam Bam has way tooooo much travel.

Thanks Jeff for reminding us all to keep it stock. Ha Ha Ha !

And now I see additional tire siping. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dmac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr. 2018 at 3:50pm
Jeff the work you do and the effort placed into it is above and beyond. I enjoy reading the updates to this thread. See you on the trails this summer/fall my friend.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr. 2018 at 7:58pm
Thanks Dennis. I'm trying to get the best of both worlds. Lots of flex side to side, but be able to minimize it going uphill and keep a low COG. Not sure if it will work or not but one way or another I learn something.

Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

And now I see additional tire siping.

same siping I had, My tires must have a lot of dust on them that causes it to show up better.... Still got my red dust on the wheels from Moab

Here is a bracket I made to hold the winch controls:



Velcro secures the controller so I can use it in or out of the jeep:



Edited by jpet - 13 Apr. 2018 at 8:00pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr. 2018 at 2:39am
How much uptravel do you have from ride height vs downtravel? 


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr. 2018 at 5:28pm
Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

How much uptravel do you have from ride height vs downtravel? 
Stuffing straight down, I can go 3-1/2”before my drag link collides:





I can change them out to heim joints to get more clearance. My steering box is 1/4” away from touching the axle tube:



..... and my drive shaft touches the bellhousing even with the clearance I made:



Full droop straight is about 4-1/2”:





No doubt, when driving on an uneven surface, everything will move farther. This is just picking up the front end gently and squatting it down gently.

Side to side, I can stuff an extra inch before the spring is flat:





.... this is with 4 tires touching



If I sit in the Jeep or apply more pressure to the rear, it will travel even farther but the spring will start to invert. Here the spring is flat:



Here I sucked the axle up with the winch to neutral:



..... it occurred to me that if I ever got hung up on my belly, I might be able to suck the axle up, throw some rocks underneath, then drop the axle back down.

Edited by jpet - 14 Apr. 2018 at 5:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr. 2018 at 5:54pm
Since I moved my rear axle forward a half inch, my rear tire does not rub near as hard:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr. 2018 at 5:59pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

Since I moved my rear axle forward a half inch, my rear tire does not rub near as hard:

Bummer about the shortened wheelbase. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr. 2018 at 3:39am
The unloading thing seems to be an unfortunate development. Is this something pretty new or do you think you are just pushing the vehicle harder than before? I think unloading can be driven by a lot of different factors. Can you put your finger on when it started being an issue?How much lift over stock do you think you have now? Any idea what the front to rear weight bias is? 

A suck down winch can be pretty handy, basically another tool in the toolbox. There are lots of tricks you can do with one. If you removed your hook on the main winch, could you push the thimble through the hawse and then connect it to the axle tube fairly easy? That seems like the most direct path for the cable vs running it around a bunch of bends. Then just use a shackle for regular pulling. 






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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr. 2018 at 3:48am
Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

The unloading thing seems to be an unfortunate development. Is this something pretty new or do you think you are just pushing the vehicle harder than before? ....
I changed springs last month:

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/building-a-universal-modified_topic28473_post410125.html#410125

EJS was the first time I wheeled them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Apr. 2018 at 4:02am
Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

.....How much lift over stock do you think you have now?
Probably 2”. Somewhere in this thread, A couple guys tested their stock springs for flex using a tow motor and they got 17” compared to my 32”.
Quote ....Any idea what the front to rear weight bias is?.... 

This is the only analysis I did:
https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/building-a-universal-modified_topic28473_post340383.html#340383
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2018 at 3:23pm
Since Holbrook is no longer making long leaf springs, and since I have had a few requests for my data, here it is:





LongLeafSprings022018.pdf

These are similar to the Holbrook design in that they are 5/16" thick and have offset pins, but there are also significant differences,

1. Front spring is longer
2. Rear spring is shorter
3. More lift
4. Pins are closer to center

The rear Holbrook spring has a 51-1/2" arc length and the pin is 21" from the outer eye to match the stock 42" spring center. I found having the front perch so far out front and so far away from the rear tire that it was constantly hitting obstacles and in many cases, it kept me from making the obstacle. My rear spring has the pin at 22" from the end eye and they have a 48" arc length. This moves the front perch 4" back from center belly and 5" closer to the tire.

The front Holbrook spring has an arc length of 47-3/8" and the pin is 18-3/8" from the front eye. I made mine 48" long to match the rear and the pin is 20" from the front eye to get the axle closer to center of the spring.

My shackle plates are 3-1/4" center to center both front and rear. my spring perch centers are 45-3/4" apart, both front and rear.

------------------------------------------
(disclaimer) These are guideline dimensions. Mileage may vary.

Since the axle pin is 1" closer to center, you will need to move the rear spring perch 1" farther back if you want the rear axle to remain in the stock position. Then move the inside perch so that the center distance between both perches is 45-3/4"

Since the front pin is 2" closer to center, you will need to move your front outer perches 2" forward. This will put the perch under the bumper.

As I stated in my disclaimer, these are guestimate measurements. Bolt the perches in place, set the jeep down on its weight, check your shackle angles, and drive shaft travel before welding anything.

The Holbrook springs have a 7-5/8" arch (rear) and 7-1/8" arch (front). I made both of mine 8" because, I knew they would settle down some and I wanted to have plenty of room to tune them. Before, I put mine on, I knew they would be WAY too high for me so when I had the springs made, I told STL Spring to NOT fold the binder over. This way, it would be easier to add and remove leafs. Before installation, I removed the 3rd leaf of each spring. This made the springs VERY soft, Too soft on the drivers side when I was sitting in it so I put the 3rd leaf back in the rear driver spring. This made the jeep squat approximately 4" on level ground with me sitting in it which is what I was shooting for. Then I went to Moab and wheeled. After the trip, the springs had settled significantly so I put the 3rd leaf back in all the spring packs. Once again, BAM BAM sits exactly the way I want him too and after wheeling Cliffhanger, he is holding position and very flexible as you can see by the video.

If you make these changes, you will probably want to go with no less than 10" shocks. If you want to take advantage of all the travel, you will need no less than 12" in the rear .... that is if you don't want the shocks to top and bottom out.

I'm not saying this is the best design, or the worse design, I'm just saying your jeep will have the potential to do this:



... unfortunately, the suspension will also want to unload so you will have to install limit straps front and rear. I used my winch as a suck down winch in front and I thought it was a night and day improvement on Cliffhanger. I liked it so much, I think I will do the same in the rear.

You can probably improve on this design yourself. I like the 5/16" thick main leaves for strength, but you may want to have the rest of your leaves made 1/4" or even 3/16" thick. That way you can control your spring rate better by adding and removing leafs. I did not dimension the military wrap. Your spring guy may want to make them more oblong so that they slide better. Another idea might be to have the manufacturer leave the pin out of them. This way you can bolt everything together, get your axles positioned the way you want them, mark location and the drill the hole for the pin yourself. It is is not as hard as some say. I did it with a common high speed drill bit. Just go SLOW, and hard until you are about to break through, then go SLOW and slow. I drilled right through the entire pack.

Again, use it or not, or just use it as a starting point. I just remember how hard it was for me when I was looking for spring tech so I thought I'd do my part to make it easier.

I don't want to post the Holbrook data but if someone wants it, and since Holbrook is no longer making them, you can shoot me a PM.

Edited by jpet - 25 Apr. 2018 at 3:58pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Apr. 2018 at 3:41pm
With a 45-3/4" distance between centers on the perches and 3-1/4" long shackles, mine look like this:



.... any more angle and the shackle will invert flat on stuff any less angle and you will have more lift and less droop. This is about perfect for the rear to get maximum travel. It took some wheeling to get it right.
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