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Colorado Fall Color Tours 2017!! - Event Date: 17 Sep. 2017 - 23 Sep. 2017

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Lee MN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr. 2017 at 9:19pm
Valid points "IF" the pump is making system pressure, we do not know that yet!, all we know yet is that the pump has the capacity to pump oil without pressure. A damaged pump with smeared end plates will easily do that, but not under pressure.

Lee
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m38mike View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Apr. 2017 at 9:41pm
Dennis, it takes between 20 seconds and 3 seconds for the slowdown to occur. 

Here is the motor and pump with the reservoir underneath.  It is loose from the column and being held up by some white rope.  The pump outlet is the horizontal hexagonal silver pipe with the hose coming out underneath.  The hose is connected to a brass adapter that allows it to connect to the fill tube for the reservoir.  The reservoir is the long black box below the motor.  It holds 13 quarts of Auto Trans Fluid.  The on-off switch is so low because this unit is normally mounted about 7 feet off the floor on the side of the lift.  BTW, this is a Rotary model 84 lift.  It's about 30 years old. 

This is how I configured the unit to run the continuity check.  I ran the pump for a couple minutes like this and it ran just fine. 



On the right side you can see some of the 1/4" plumbing that carries the ATF to the hydraulic cylinder in the other lift column.  That is some of the plumbing I am removing and cleaning today to see if there is something in the pipes that's causing the blockage. 

In order to take the plumbing apart I had to lift the arms up off the ends of the cover plate.  I used the handyman jack to lift the arms up until the first latch lock was engaged.  fortunately since both set of arms are connected by cables, lifting up one side also lifted up the other side. 



Well time to get back at it.
M38Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mriceflinter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr. 2017 at 1:00am
Mike, does the plumming beyond the hydrolic lines have any fittings that don't look like standard fittings such as couplings , unions, elbows, tees and the like?  Mike
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m38mike View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr. 2017 at 2:43am
Mike, all of the steel plumbing uses standard 1/4" or standard 1/2" NPT fittings like you'd find in any hardware store.  There are no valves in the line once it leaves the pump.  It's a completely open line into each of the lift cylinders. 
M38Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mriceflinter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr. 2017 at 3:17am
Mike ,
Well, that just blew my idea.
 One thing, When it stops part way up, does it always stop at the same place? I am running out of ideas for you but if this is the case maybe there is something mechanical instead of hydraulic stoping it! Just a thought. Good luck and I will keep watching the forum in case a clue pops up in your search. There has got to be a logical reason!  Mike
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m38mike View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr. 2017 at 2:19pm
Mike, that's the frustrating part.  there is nothing consistent in the stoppage.   Sometime it stops as soon as I turn on the motor, sometimes it won't stop until the arms are half way up the column.  Sometimes it will stop then start then stop then start.  Sometimes it just stops and will not let anything move.  To me, that is consistent with having something in the plumbing that's floating around in the pipes, and then gets jammed up at an elbow or t-fitting.  It's also consistent with having worn parts in the pump itself that are starting to bind up.  I just hope that it's crap in the pipes. 
M38Mike
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TERRY View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TERRY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr. 2017 at 4:53pm
Mike, could it be the motor? Do you have a clamp on amp meter to check the current draw?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mriceflinter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr. 2017 at 7:50pm
Sorry but I don't have a clamp on amp meter any more but if Mike puts a restriction on it like a valve when he does the bypass test , he should be able to tell if it is the motor. Just be careful not to restrict it too much. Besides without a load on the lift when running it the amp draw on the motor should be minimal anyway. By the way, if any of the plumbing has sch 40 fittings , they are not designed for the pressure the pump is designed for although it may still work if the bypass valve is set to a low enough pressure. We found this situation on a pump at the power plant but it was pushing against 2200 pounds and I don't think the lift would require near that much pressure. By the way,the plumbing held up till we discovered it and replaced it with the right stuff!  Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mriceflinter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Apr. 2017 at 7:55pm
Mike,
  I almost forgot this but with a pressure gauge in the system you should be able to tell if a sudden load from the lift is happening when it stops part way up.  Mike 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2017 at 2:58am
Then I'm looking forward to getting a pressure gauge.  I inspected all the plumbing and put it all back together.  I ran the lift up and down 4 or 5 times before it started stalling out on me again.  This time when it would start stalling out, I would open the drain valve for lowering the lift just a little.  The motor would speed up and the lift would continue to go up.  If it tried to stall again I would open up the drain valve again, just a little, and the lift would continue to go up. 

This is leading me to believe that the pump is the problem.  I talked with my local mechanic about lifts on Friday.  He has a lift technician coming to inspect his lifts per state regulations in a couple weeks.  I'm going to call him to see if he'll come inspect mine and tell me what he thinks is the problem.  I also found out from my mechanic that a local shop rebuilt one of his lift pumps because it behaved like mine. 

Well, I may have to get back on the creeper to work on the Blue Mule to get it ready for the Black Hills.  Need to swap out the front springs, and the master cylinder, and do some work to the transfer case shifters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dandjeep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2017 at 3:18am
OK. This is totally off the wall, but I do have a little background in hydraulics. You said the control is normally mounted seven feet off the ground and is now hanging at the bottom on a rope. Could there be a reason it was mounted higher? Does the reservoir need to be higher than the pump and cylinders so there is no void in the lines when going up and down and the air pocket from the reservoir is always at the top?
Crazy I know and probably unlikely, just asking.  Dan


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Lee MN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2017 at 3:21am
Mike, when the gage shows up, hook it directly to the end of the hose and see what the pump has to offer. This morning I spent a little time looking at rotary lift info on the web. One offering was to hold the operating lever in the down position and run the pump, this would flush any trash from the system, it sound like you have done that. I also believe your pump is the problem, the gage will tell us that.

Lee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mriceflinter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2017 at 4:03am
Mike,
 is the pump stoping suddenly or is it taking a second to fully stop turning? you've given me some clues in your last post and also, is there a filter in the system? If it is stoping suddenly and not acting like it is building pressure first then you may be right on the pump diagnosis.  Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkamonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2017 at 4:57am
Totally out of right field here but are all of the seals in the cylinders working correctly, no O rings worn and cut trying to roll out of their groves?
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Lee MN View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee MN Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2017 at 12:02pm
Originally posted by Unkamonkey Unkamonkey wrote:

Totally out of right field here but are all of the seals in the cylinders working correctly, no O rings worn and cut trying to roll out of their groves?


I believe they are single acting cylinders, if the seals were bad they would be puking oil from the top as the leaked oil has no place to go.

Lee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2017 at 4:23pm
Dan, yes the pump and reservoir are mounted high so that air in the lines gets trapped in the reservoir.  It also keeps little kids from playing with the controls, and makes it harder for adult kids to bump into the unit.  I think it's also a subliminal effort to sell more step ladders.

Lee, I've completely flushed out the whole system so nothing but ATF in the pipes now.  I'm curious what the gauge will show us. 

Mike, it takes about 1/2 to 1 second to go from a full run to near stop.  It does not stop immediately like something broke inside the pump.  That's what makes me think that the pump may be worn out and something is wearing inside the pump. 

uncamonkey, Lee is right.  All the seals and O-rings are in good shape.  No leaks anywhere.  The cylinders push the arms up, and drain down back into the reservoir.  No hidden valves.  Very simple system.  The only valves are at the pump. 
M38Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote m38mike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2017 at 4:51pm
Just talked on the phone with the lift repair guy that my mechanic uses to fix his lifts.  He said that it sounds like the problem may be the capacitor in the motor.  When it's fully charged it runs well.  When it gets discharged then the motor does not have the power to run the pump.  He said that's a $30 part, and a common failure in old motors.   He's going to come by my place in a week or two to check out my installation to make sure it's safe, and he'll bring a replacement capacitor with him.  I think for now I'll clean it all up and leave it until he gets here. 
M38Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Apr. 2017 at 5:18pm
Ahh...the old Capacitor.  We often lose capacitors on the older motors for commercial door openers.  Based on my experience with capacitors, it sounds like your lift repair guy is on the right track.  This is a very simple part to swap out.  Not sure if there's a decent electrical supply shop in Salida, but if you don't want to wait a week, you might be able to find a local replacement capacitor.

Can you tell what MFD range is on the existing capacitor?

Tim
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