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Extremely Hard Brake Pedal

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scuba82 View Drop Down
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    Posted: 23 May 2015 at 11:15am
After sitting for about 3-4 days I started my willys up to take for a ride. Right when I was about to pull out of the garage, I noticed the brake pedal was extremely hard to push and it would not stop the jeep, (it wasn't like this last time I drove it). I noticed at a slight roll on the decline in my driveway I could stand on the pedal and there would be a delayed reaction before minor braking would occur. I have Herm's dual master conversion and put that in about 4 years ago. Never have had a brake problem like this before. I have been doing some research and read that new brake fluid in old rubber hoses can sometimes cause swelling causing a problem like I described....anyone ever heard of this? Because the funny thing is just about a week before I swapped a new rear end along with my 11" brakes. I added new fluid to my master and bled the system. So yes there was new fluid running through those hoses.

So what I have done so far...I went ahead and replaced the master. Bench bled it and installed it on the frame. After hooking up my front and rear lines, the pedal became hard just like it was before with the old master cylinder. I can also hear a little bit of a "tinging" sounds coming from the rear driver side drum as I push the pedal with all my might and then let off. Anyone ever have an issue where the stiff pedal was caused by something in the drum? Spring broke in there or the wheel cylinder gone bad? Any advice would be greatly appreciated before I start tearing into things in the morning! Thanks:) 
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67charger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 67charger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2015 at 1:57pm
I would start with the drum you heard the noise on. The hoses arent new? You could jack up the jeep have somebody press the brake pedal as you inspect each wheel and rubber hose. If that doesnt find anything you could have somebody push the brake pedal and you could loosen the bleeders one at a time and see if you can locate a blockage too. Thats all i got right now.
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Mark W. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2015 at 2:40pm
Did the pedal move freely when you removed the master cylinder? nothing wrong with the linkage itself?
 
Swelling hoses will not make the pedal hard to depress they will actually soften it giving the fuild some where to go besides moving the wheel cylinders.
 
I would guess you have either rusted wheel cylinders or a blockage in the lines. Try bleeding the lines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 48cj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2015 at 4:35pm
I experieinced this on an all stock brake system and it ended up being frozen wheel cylinders on 2 of my drums.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pjensen641 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2015 at 5:31pm
Also, rubber lines can delaminate on the inside.  The rubber bulges the line shut, and then you can't get fluid to move.  If you have old lines, it would be worth replacing them to see if that clears things up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamnalan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2015 at 10:00pm
I don't know about Herm's dual MC conversion, but stock MC on older jeeps require some brake pedal free play.  There's a small port in the MC that needs to be opened up when the pedal is released.. a lack of free play prevents that port from being uncovered, resulting in a too-hard pedal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scuba82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2015 at 8:22pm
I went ahead and opened the brake on the rear passenger side and replaced the wheel cylinder on that axle, (thanks 48cj2a and 67Charger) (it was kind of rusty inside the bore and was almost a mud like consistency). I also replaced the soft line that runs from the frame down to the rear axle (Thanks Mark). I believe this was the problem as it was very swollen and I could not even blow the slightest bit of air through it with my compressor. (Thanks PJensen) After a few hours of working on it and being demoralized after damaging that little junction box the soft line goes into that splits the lines to the right and left side I gave up for the day. Does anyone think the local parts store will have one of those little T-junctions fittings that the soft line goes into? Thank you for all the advice!
I never thought about the pedal not having enough free play. I do believe I may have an issue with this as well as there is no slack in between the plunger and the mc bore. (Thanks Tamnalan)
Well...hopefully can find that fitting at the parts store today!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2015 at 11:15pm
If the local NAPA or ACE hardware doesn't have a suitable replacement for that Brass Tee I would be surprised. Be sure to take it with you when you go to pickup the new one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scuba82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2015 at 4:10am
Mark, went to 3 parts stores today with it in hand...nobody had one that would work (I'm in Hawaii though where unique parts are hard to come by) I'm ordering 2 from Walcks. But I did go home, threw it all back together, tightened it really good. Not getting any leakage from any of my fittings, bled it and still my pedal feels like nothing until I get to the very bottom. U don't know where to start anymore...this sounds like a bleeding issue or somewhere there is air in the line. Think a wheel cylinder up front could cause symptoms like this?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 67charger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2015 at 4:27am
Your front brakes do the most stopping so i would check them too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scuba82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2015 at 10:08am
I ran compressed air through all of my lines and and there are no blockages, neither front or rear (though I have front hoses and T-unions coming from Walcks in the mail and once they come in I will replace them anyways) I have now replaced both rear wheel cylinders and bled the the system over and over. I made some head way today but my pedal still feels a little spongy...maybe I need to vacuum bleed it or something...I just can't seem to get all the little bubbles out of the front. I also noticed that my brake light pressure switch is not making the lights turn on. I have it linked in with my front brakes with a t-union. Does this need to be bled too? I think I can probably have someone push the pedal while I open unscrew the pressure switch, let whatever air is in there out and tighten it up but don't remember dong that when I put this system in a few years back. These brakes have been a real pain in the butt! Thanks in advance for those who might have ideas or suggestions!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WorkInProgress Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2015 at 3:17pm
Did you bench bled the mc? Even after I bench bled my mc I still had to do it again after it was installed. Double check that every connection is tight. After I put in new lines I tried to bleed just to realize 1 I forgot to tighten. I love using my vacuum bleeder.


At least it sounds like you might have fixed the hard pedal issue did you use copper washers or pipe thread on the npt fittings? Like the brake switch and the rubber line that goes into the tee? DON'T USE ANY SEALANTS ON FLARED FITTINGS THOUGH.

Good luck I'm sure you can get it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cherlymo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2015 at 8:39pm
Does your dual mc system have a pressure valve to shift it to the front or back if you lose a wheel cylinder or break a line on either end.  If so you will probably have to bleed the front brakes also and make sure the pedal goes all the way down as far as possible to make the valve go back to center.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scuba82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 May 2015 at 11:30pm
hmm, not sure if my master cylinder (which is for an 82-83 ford fairmont...after researching a lot of guys use these for the dual master swap) does have a pressure valve. It is very basic, I took the old one apart and there were no valves, only the 2 ports that allow fluid to go into the cylinder where the plunger pushes it. I will go back and re-bleed again. I think I am going to switch my lines. I currently have the small reservoir plumbed to the fronts and the larger reservoir plumbed to the rears. Maybe this will make a difference. 
I did not use any copper washers on any of the fittings. Should I have used a copper washer on the t-ftting that connects the soft hose to the rear lines on the rear axle. I did not use teflon tape on it either. Should I pull it apart and put a copper washer and tape on the treads? I currently don't have any leaks. 
I am wondering if my brake light switch is not working because I did not bleed the line that goes to my switch...maybe that is why the pedal is a little soft. Scared to take this thing out the way it is..even if I had brake lights, have a fear of the pedal just going to the floor when coming up to a red light. Wow this thing is tough to diagnose!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2015 at 1:01am
You currently have it plumbed backwards the first port closest to the pushrod would be for the front brakes. And if it has a larger reservoir its most likely designed for a Disc/Drum braking system. Why not use a MC from a Jeep? Autozone along with almost everyone else carrys them. 
Chug A Lug
1948 2A Body Customized
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scuba82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2015 at 1:31am
Thanks Mark. I'm going to buy more line line to route it correctly, routing the larger reservoir to the front and the smaller to the backs. I'll bench bleed it one more time to to eliminate any last bubbles. With the kit that Herm sells, there technically isn't a proper jeep master cylinder, that is why I am using the Fairmont one. It has to be the so called "Corvette" style that runs lines out on the right side of the m/c
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cherlymo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2015 at 6:25am
The pressure valve I am talking about would not be in the mc. it would be in a metal block in the line leaving the master cylinder.  It would have a line feeding the front brakes from one end of the block and one feeding the back brakes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scuba82 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 June 2015 at 9:12am
Mark, I'm trying to picture it but can't figure it out. Do you happen to have a picture of this set-up...id like to see it before I start re-routing lines. I can take pics tomorrow of what I'm currently running as well. Thanks!
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