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The Resurrection of CJ2-26

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Oilleaker1 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar. 2017 at 12:49pm
Huge amount of work to make one tailgate . Cool, but alot of work. I was thinking if someone had the ability to digitalise  the "JEEP" and then send it to a CNC machine to make the die, the protruding upper part would have to be smaller and the bottom part bigger so you would end up with a to scale pressing? I'm not educated in this process, but have worked with a artist who made lost wax castings and then a mold. We made silicon bronze tank badges for a old BSA motorcycle. We had to remove the screw hole divots in the mold and drill them by hand. The silicon bronze had shrinkage when cooled that messed up the hole spacing.  Nothing is as easy as you think.  If only the original gate was around. Back then the thought was it's just a old Jeep piece of junk.  Worth 50 bucks to them.   Now it's extremely rare. Similar to Willys MA Jeeps, but rarer!!!!! It's in good hands. John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar. 2017 at 12:50pm
On CJ2-26, there was some orange chalk likes with measurements that appeared to be for aligning the JEEP stamp.  Other the years, someone painted underneath the hood.  When Fred bought CJ2-26, that paint was flaking off.  He sent me the flakes and I put them to together and scanned them and inverted the image to see what it was.  I will have to try and dig that out.  The measurements could be interpreted as either where to put the hand stamp or where to position it if it was hydraulically stamped.  I tend to agree with Jeff that there were hand stamped since the letters are not consistent.
 
Here is the paint chip:
 
 
Never could make it out.


Edited by Todd Paisley - 14 Mar. 2017 at 1:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar. 2017 at 12:57pm
Oilleaker1:  What I sent Jeff was a digitization of both the front and back of the JEEP stamp.  The problem was that the scanner did not like the shiny paint on it so it isn't crisp.  What really needs to happen to do what you want to do is for someone to clean up the scan.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Adrian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar. 2017 at 6:11pm
Originally posted by Todd Paisley Todd Paisley wrote:


Al sent me photos of the engine that has X19 stamped into it.  I am not sure what to make of that.  I tried to buy it years ago.  What would be nice would be to see what the engine assembly date would be.
Todd. Yes I saw the photos myself and it all looked genuine. I might chase this one up from my end and see how far I go.
Does the rest of X19 exist, and if so what engine is in it??Adrian
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar. 2017 at 8:35pm
I am not sure what that engine is.  None of the other prototypes had a X number stamped on the engine.  They were all based on production MB engines. It may be a coincidence it has the X stamping on it.  What would be nice would be to see what the engine assembly date is on this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2017 at 6:02pm
Originally posted by Todd Paisley Todd Paisley wrote:

....
I think what you need to do is smooth out the corners between the horizontal and vertical components of the "E".
 ........
I Just think your bottom and top horizontal lines of the E are a little too big. Thin those out and make a more rounded transition between the horizontal and vertical lines, then I think you got it!
Yes, again,  I just drew that "E" as a concept while I was sitting on my couch in my pajama bottoms.  It's not to be taken literally.

Originally posted by Oilleaker1 Oilleaker1 wrote:

Huge amount of work to make one tailgate . Cool, but alot of work. I was thinking if someone had the ability to digitalise  the "JEEP" and then send it to a CNC machine to make the die, the protruding upper part would have to be smaller and the bottom part bigger so you would end up with a to scale pressing? I'm not educated in this process, but have worked with a artist who made lost wax castings and then a mold. We made silicon bronze tank badges for a old BSA motorcycle. We had to remove the screw hole divots in the mold and drill them by hand. The silicon bronze had shrinkage when cooled that messed up the hole spacing.  Nothing is as easy as you think.  If only the original gate was around. Back then the thought was it's just a old Jeep piece of junk.  Worth 50 bucks to them.   Now it's extremely rare. Similar to Willys MA Jeeps, but rarer!!!!! It's in good hands. John

I did shop this around but nobody wants to touch it ....... and I doubt any CNC shop would.

The scanned area was not flat but I cut out most of the mesh surrounding the letters so that I could align the letters to X,Y,Z coordinates:


... The letters may appear angular but that is only because the scan is not perfectly parallel so the wire mesh is also not parallel.  I have the letters square,flat, and parallel to the best of my ability.   Here are the letters laying down flat:


... as you can see, each letter is taller where the wider vertical pillars are and they actually swoop down over the "E" tines and the hook part of the "J".  Here is a sectional view of both "E" vertical pillars:


.... the first "E" has a relatively uniform radius of 3/8".  The second "E" does not have a uniform radius.  It is actually closer to 9/16" to the right, flat on top, and then swoops down to the left. .. very inconsistent.  These sectionals are  taken from the center of the vertical pillar.  They are about a 1/2" long sample, and I cut out the very center where the middle tine intersects.  As you can see, the second "E" radius is .015 deeper on the back side of the tine.  The second "E" from Fred's sample is also a little flat on top.  Here is a better view of this:


They are not flat and parallel from top to bottom..... sectional view of the tines:


Look at the "E" to the right.  It's obvious that the metal was not captured in a two piece die of any precision.

...... and this is just the "E"!

.... our software is not capable of writing a code that is this complex.  Perhaps someone else could.  I have had problems getting someone to take it on, and that was not even knowing how complex the scan is.  Since this is a scan of the windshield skin, which is 28 gauge, and the tailgate is 16 gauge, you could only calculate the outside mold, The inside mold (male) would be inaccurate.  Sure, if the letters were square, flat, parallel, and concentric, the new offset could be calculated, but this stamping is far too complex.  ...  then, how much oversize should the die be to allow for spring back in the metal.  I can only guess that some experimentation and failed tests are going to be involved.  Even if it all could be done, in the end you would have a perfect die of an imperfect stamp.  If someone here works in this sort of thing, please ping me.

I am not a tool maker.  When I was experimenting with bows, and canvas tops, I started out by reverse engineering imperfect parts.  As I gained experience and after seeing some original drawings, I've changed my approach.  Now I analyse the data, but I put lots of focus on what I think the engineer intended the part to look like using the techniques he had to work with and by observing the engineers patterns on other drawings.  This one is a tough one  I've seen the drawing of the "WILLYS" stamp that has dimensions on the letters.  Sure wish there was one on this one.  I'll do the best I can with what I have to work with.  Since they didn't have CNC machines then, I assume the various depths of the stamping are due to some sort of limitation and unplanned.  That, or the die was hand finished.  I can make this but I can only make a flat and parallel die that matches what I think the engineers intent was.  Still analyzing.
   


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2017 at 6:28pm
Here is a picture of Fred's casting with the contrast turned up:


This could all the letters can be done with a 3/8" ball endmill, a 3/16" ball endmill and some interpolation.  Probably have to do some hand blending.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2017 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

Here is a picture of Fred's casting with the contrast turned up:


I think all the letters can be done with a 3/8" ball endmill, a 3/16" ball endmill and some interpolation.  Probably have to do some hand blending.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2017 at 6:57pm
Hi Jeff.  I think it will take a bit fiddling, but I am sure you can figure it out!  Are you sure the horizontal lines of the E are not the same size?
 
Here is what I found during the thickness measuring of the windshield:
 
 
The tailgate:
 
 
I can send you the tailgate I want you to stamp and you can cut out the center to get a more accurate measurement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jerry45 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2017 at 7:20pm
I'm finding all of this fascinating! Thanks Fred and Todd!
As the owner of a 1945 CJ-2A, #11802, I'm really interested in how it all turns out!
Jerry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2017 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by Todd Paisley Todd Paisley wrote:

......Are you sure the horizontal lines of the E are not the same size?.....
In what way? Length? width? radius?   You have seen the photos and drawings with dimensions. What do you think? I have no doubt they are different in size What I'm not sure about is if they were intended to be different by the engineer or if they are different due to sloppy stamping.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2017 at 7:59pm
Width.  I think the widths of the horizontal lines are the same.  My belief/theory is that the stamp was hand done.  They may have only made one portion of the die and just beat the metal around it.  That would explain the difference in the letters.  When they went into production, the obviously used better tooling since the WILLYS was very crisp and uniform.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2017 at 8:20pm
In this drawing, the engineer drew the middle tine more narrow:


At first I thought they were all made with the same tool but the center one might not be as deep.  I used a depth mic on Fred's castings and it appears that they are approximately the same depth.  Can't tell for sure because the stamping is not perfectly flat.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2017 at 8:36pm
The more I study Fred's molds, the more I think they are intended to be the same width:


..... 3/16" radius about .08 - .09 deep which makes them aprox 5/16" wide:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2017 at 8:36pm
If you do the same for the other E do you get the same dimensions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2017 at 9:01pm
Originally posted by Todd Paisley Todd Paisley wrote:

If you do the same for the other E do you get the same dimensions?
On the pencil drawing?  Yes.  On the molds? ... The dimensions are all over the place and the stamping is actually deeper from one end to the other vertically.  Since on norm for most of the Willys drawings is to use fractional dimensions with in 1/64, my guess is that the tines are supposed to be 3/16" radius and 5/16" wide.:


The vertical post is 3/8" radius, 9/16" wide.

... That's what I'm going with thus far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Oilleaker1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar. 2017 at 10:58pm
Schimster, (  Luke Shimmel) has taken a college level course in casting items. What i'm wondering is if you sent him a plaster cast of the inside , could he cast a metal die from that, then smooth it up and use it, and also cast a outside depression die? Or would it simply break when pressed?  Again, I'm just throwing out a idea since I have no formal training in this stuff. Oilly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote leecarr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar. 2017 at 12:47am
You guys realize that the only person that could even come close to arguing if it's right or not is another one of you guys.
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