What to do with this T90?

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   And so it begins... assembly.
I have the NOS mainshaft from Debella, master rebuild kit from Novak. Everything is clean, inspected and ready to go. I've been reviewing all the videos, written guidance and forum posts. I'm going to either make or obtain a full face gasket, like original. This, along with other measures should reduce leaks.

I've paid particular attention to the mainshaft endlplay issue. I bought an NOS mainshaft spacer just as an alternative to the one I have, thinking it may be a different width - it is. The old one measures .283", the new one .294". Not sure which is going to be best, or somewhere in the middle. I have a surface grinder, so can thin the larger one if needed.

It is interesting that there are variations in the assembly process between Novak, Stivers and schnitzelhaus. The end result is the same, so they all work. I did my practice assembly using the Stivers method and it worked well for me, so I'll probably follow it again.

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ndnchf Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 22 Sep. 2017 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2177	Post Options Post Reply Quote ndnchf Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Dec. 2018 at 3:34pm
	And so it begins... assembly. I have the NOS mainshaft from Debella, master rebuild kit from Novak. Everything is clean, inspected and ready to go. I've been reviewing all the videos, written guidance and forum posts. I'm going to either make or obtain a full face gasket, like original. This, along with other measures should reduce leaks. I've paid particular attention to the mainshaft endlplay issue. I bought an NOS mainshaft spacer just as an alternative to the one I have, thinking it may be a different width - it is. The old one measures .283", the new one .294". Not sure which is going to be best, or somewhere in the middle. I have a surface grinder, so can thin the larger one if needed. It is interesting that there are variations in the assembly process between Novak, Stivers and schnitzelhaus. The end result is the same, so they all work. I did my practice assembly using the Stivers method and it worked well for me, so I'll probably follow it again.
	1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.

JeepFever Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 07 Aug. 2012 Location: VA Status: Offline Points: 2749	Post Options Post Reply Quote JeepFever Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Dec. 2018 at 8:25pm
	I am so impressed with your attention to detail, and professionalism in all your work! That T-90 will be as good as new for sure.

ndnchf Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 22 Sep. 2017 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2177	Post Options Post Reply Quote ndnchf Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Dec. 2018 at 9:34pm
	Thanks Ron. I'm trying to learn from everone elses experiences...and mistakes I've spent 4 or 5 hours on it today. Got the main shaft assembled, cluster gear bearings, and input shaft assembled. I spent a good hour trying to check endplay of the cluster gear. I just couldn't find a way to set up a dial indicator to reach inside the case to read off the cluster. I ended up checking it with feeler gauges. I got a snug .012". I'd prefer a little more, but I'm sure it will wear in. The Novak kit is really nice. But I had to do a little work on a couple pieces. The cluster/idler shaft lock plate was a little too tall, so I trimmed it down a tad. One of the cluster shaft thrust washer's hole was too small for the shaft, it was opened up. They forgot to include the shift tower rail hole plugs. I sent them an email about it. I'm done for today, time for a beer.
	1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.

ndnchf Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 22 Sep. 2017 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2177	Post Options Post Reply Quote ndnchf Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 09 Dec. 2018 at 11:01pm
	Ok, I lied - I'm not quite done. The cluster needle bearing spacing was worrying me. When I assembled the needle bearings I used 6 spacer washer. One on each end of the central spacer, one between each set of rollers at each end, and one at each end - 6 total. But when I was done, there is a gap at the end. I expected the last washer to be just shy of flush. I pressed them to one end and measured the gap: .182" short of flush. The washers are .050" thick, so I added three (two at one end and one at the other). That reduced the gap to .032". That would be .016" at each end, which I think is reasonable. There needs to be some room for the rollers to move. I did some Googling and found others have encountered this problem too. So I think adding the three extra washers is the right thing. But should they go against the central spacer? Not sure where to put them. The Novak kit came with seven washers, so it seems they anticipated a need to take up space. Fortunately I have the old washers to use also. BTW, the new Novak central spacer is within a couple thousandths in length to the originals I have. The old and new needle bearings are the same too. Has anyone else encountered this? What did you do?
	1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.

ndnchf Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 22 Sep. 2017 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2177	Post Options Post Reply Quote ndnchf Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Dec. 2018 at 8:30pm
	Nobody has run into this situation? I've been told on a facebook forum that it is normal.
	1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.

mbullism Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 4 Joined: 29 May 2015 Location: MA Status: Offline Points: 4783	Post Options Post Reply Quote mbullism Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Dec. 2018 at 9:07pm
	So, I'm going to go with I didn't run into it because it never occurred to me that it would be an issue . . Nothing in anything I read or watched prior prompted me to give it any thought, and doing so now I cannot come up with a compelling reason to be concerned It's been fine for probably a thousand miles now
	Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it... Welcome to 1930's Germany

Mike F Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Aug. 2018 Location: Longview wa Status: Offline Points: 684	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mike F Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Dec. 2018 at 9:12pm
	Steve, I don't think that's an excessive amount of clearance. Seems if you have 0.002 clearance between each fixed and rotating element of the system (each end of needle bearings and spacers). Total clearance would be 0.016. as the transmission heats up during operation this will shrink some. not an expert here but it sounds ok to me.

ndnchf Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 22 Sep. 2017 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2177	Post Options Post Reply Quote ndnchf Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Dec. 2018 at 9:49pm
	I'm starting to think that I'm overthinking this. I've seen it mentioned in a couple places on the net, but not in any serious or authoritative documention. Mike F, sorry, but I'm not following your math. I have .182" endplay. I don't see how the running clearances between each fixed and rotating element will bring resulting clearance down to .016". Thats a difference of .166". I'm not disputing what you say, I'm just not understanding. Regardless, I'm leaning towards leaving it as is with the .182" end play.
	1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.

Mike F Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 12 Aug. 2018 Location: Longview wa Status: Offline Points: 684	Post Options Post Reply Quote Mike F Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Dec. 2018 at 10:04pm
	Oh, I read that wrong. read 18 thousand's never mind you have plenty. I looked in to heat expansion. looks like .016 per 100 degrees. Not that it matters. I am following this with interest as this is where I'm headed next.

ndnchf Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 22 Sep. 2017 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2177	Post Options Post Reply Quote ndnchf Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Dec. 2018 at 10:14pm
	Ok, thanks for clearing that up Mike. Two other tidbits of info. I heard back from Novak concerning the missing shift tower rail plugs. It turns out they are no longer available. So take good care of your originals. Fortunately, mine are in good shape. I heard back from Brian Jenkins. He is sending me a laser cut full face front gasket, like originally used. This will be a big help reducing leaks. Steve
	1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.

BrianJ Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 06 Oct. 2014 Location: Hagerstown, MD Status: Offline Points: 564	Post Options Post Reply Quote BrianJ Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 10 Dec. 2018 at 10:33pm
	It'll go out in the mail tomorrow.
	Brian Jenkins 1946 CJ2A - SN: 12275

ndnchf Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 22 Sep. 2017 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2177	Post Options Post Reply Quote ndnchf Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Dec. 2018 at 12:36am
	Awesome - thanks Brian!
	1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.

smfulle Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member Joined: 16 Sep. 2010 Location: Ogden, Utah Status: Offline Points: 6141	Post Options Post Reply Quote smfulle Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Dec. 2018 at 3:12am
	Steve, If you go down to the plumbing section of your local big box home improvement store, they will have some copper pipe end caps that are almost a perfect fit for that shift rail plug. And because they are a cap you can get them to stick out a little so they don’t interfere with the shift rails. Take a look at this thread. https://thecj2apage.com/forums/leaky-shift-tower_topic38921.html Edited by smfulle - 11 Dec. 2018 at 3:39am
	Stan 48 CJ2A (Grampa's Jeep) 59 Chevy 1/2 ton Grampa's Jeep Build Thread

JeepSaffer Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 26 Sep. 2014 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 1181	Post Options Post Reply Quote JeepSaffer Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Dec. 2018 at 6:46am
	The shift rail plugs that shipped with my Novak kit were of the expansion type (like mini engine freeze plugs). Because the shift rails end up flush with the front of the sift tower, I just couldn't see how they would fit in and not be punched straight back out again on the first shift . To be honest, I can't see how Stan got his dimes in there without being punched out either. My rails are both NOS. QTM has NOS shift rail plugs that are like end caps, not plugs. $1 each, IIRC. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-Willys-CJ2A-M38-CJ3A-M38A1-NOS-T90-transmission-shift-tower-plugs-642757/302546690348?hash=item467130212c:g:5HgAAOSwuhFaHdCd:rk:17:pf:0 They are the right depth and right OD and ID to stay in place while the rails move inside of them. I put a tiny smear of Permatex 2 on the inside lip of the bore to seal the plugs and tapped them into place. They were a tight friction fit. I put a light coat of black spray paint to hopefully stop the rust. Mike
	1948 CJ2A #204853 in South Africa

ndnchf Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 22 Sep. 2017 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2177	Post Options Post Reply Quote ndnchf Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Dec. 2018 at 11:45am
	Thanks guys, great info. There sure are a lot of places for leaks to occur in these T90s. I hadn't thought much about leaks from the shift tower, but geez, its like Swiss cheese - holes everywhere
	1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.

Greaser007 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 16 Jan. 2018 Location: Anderson, Calif Status: Offline Points: 850	Post Options Post Reply Quote Greaser007 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Dec. 2018 at 2:26pm
	This has been a good build-thread for us members and with the Links attached which I have not followed yet. I have the same procedure to go through as what you have just experienced, because over the summer, I too, purchased a T-90 with the long input shaft, and bought the short input from Debella's also. I will get to Re-learn this proceedure again when I make the switch of shafts. The last time I rebuilt a T-90 was in 1985, and at that time, I had to replace 2-nd gear because the trans would pop out of 2-nd on de-acceleration. It is very gratifying when we are successful at making a repair that works. Thank you for the nice photos and explanation of your "fixes" to the shift ball and so forth. Len

WeeWilly Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 07 May 2009 Location: Clayton IN Status: Offline Points: 3423	Post Options Post Reply Quote WeeWilly Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 11 Dec. 2018 at 4:30pm
	Thanks jeepSaffer, I just ordered 4 of the plugs. You just cant have enough jeep parts laying around lol. Jim
	47 CJ2A (Ranch Hand) 48 CJ2A, 48 Willys truck, T3C 3782, M274 (Military Mule)

ndnchf Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Sponsor Member x 2 Joined: 22 Sep. 2017 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 2177	Post Options Post Reply Quote ndnchf Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 12 Dec. 2018 at 1:47am
	I had quite an evening getting this thing put back together. I was sweating bullets about the mainshaft endplay. I had 2 main shaft rear bearing spacers to choose from. One was .284" wide, the other .291" wide. After reading about so many people having excessive endplay, I went with the larger .291" spacer. After getting it all buttoned up, I tapped the mainshaft forward until the syncros started to drag. Then went in with feeler gauges. It came in at .011". I believe the tolerance is .012" - .018". So it's 001" on the tight side, I can live with that. I expect that will open up as things seat in. Would you guys agree?
	1948 CJ2A - It goes nowhere fast, but anywhere slow.