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how many threads on head bolt?

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GloucesterBoy View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Feb. 2019 at 1:35pm
I walked away from Ratdog a couple weeks ago due to a disappointing set back after 2 months of good progress. 
I purchased a 48-2a motor from a member 5-6 years ago due to my original 47 L134 having a crack in the block behind the dipstick. The gentleman who sold it to me was very nice and helpful. He ran the motor and showed the oil pressure prior to purchase. I was/am happy.

While the new motor was on the stand, I replaced the carb, starter, clutch, ring gear, had the flywheel re-surfaced,radiator overhauled, pan gasket etc...

when putting the motor back in, I pulled the front center head bolt out of the block( the bolt was used for the engine hoistConfused). I was able to get the motor in and fasten to the mounts and bell housing. I continued to put things back on( Radiator, belt, wiring, linkage, plugs, wires, rotor cond., etc.) while I was thinking how I will figure out how to get that stripped bolt back in. 

Now, after reading a post from 2010 (that recently resurfaced) regarding flywheel installation, I am not certain that I installed the flywheel 180* out, or correctly. I have a lot of concerns regarding all the work that I did and also being a self taught Willys enthusiast( dare I say backyard mechanic).

My question today is; since the motor is in and I am pretty "tightened up", can I start the motor to see if there are any issues that i did not address? I guess I am "sketchy" about continuing forward wondering if I even have a viable motor and set up.  If the flywheel is on correctly, I may not need to pull the motor out. Do I need to pull the motor to repair the striped bolt if the flywheel is on correctly? 

Now, the question that started this thread(sorry for the babble), how many threads catch the bolt at the block? seems to me there are only 4-5 threads that actually make the connection(?). Is helicale(insert) the answer for this issue? my bolt has absolutely no damage. the bolt pulled block threads out with it. 

I have had some thought from members but I am now getting over the pouting and "pour Jerry" thing and ready to get Ratdog up and driving, for the very first time in 7 years.

what do you think?
Jerry

'47 CJ2A #96661



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Bruce W View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb. 2019 at 6:17pm
  If you have the flywheel 180* out, it will not hurt anything except your pride. When you go to set the ignition timing you'll have to use cylinder #2 or #3 for your reference instead of #1 or #4. You can check on this without pulling the engine, just bring #1 or #4 to TDC and look for the timing marks in the window. If they're there, fine. If not, well, I don't think I would pull the engine back out to correct it.
  As far as the head bolt hole - was it a bolt or a stud and nut? I guess it doesn't matter much now. Maybe, if it didn't reach far enough into the threads, a longer stud or bolt might be able to reach threads that are left deeper in the hole. I don't have much faith in this possibility, but it is that - a possibility. And at that, I would prefer a stud rather than a bolt. At worst, it's not the end of the world, just a problem. Lots of head-bolt holes have been repaired with Heli-Coils, but I think maybe the Time-Sert may be a better choice. Both are installed in a similar way and I think will require removal of the head.
  Say, "Aw, crap!" and get to work.  Good Luck.     BW
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RICKG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb. 2019 at 6:51pm
There lies the very reason studs are preferred to bolts. Each time a bolt is removed or reinstalled theres a risk of damage to the block threads..
I never met a mule I didn't like!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb. 2019 at 7:39pm
General rule of thumb for thread engagement of similar material strength will be a depth of engaged threads equal to the diameter of the fastener will develop the capacity of the fastener (a.k.a. it doesn't matter if the bolt is A307 or GR8 if you pull the block side threads out of an aluminum block, but an aluminum bolt may pop)

If you find good threads deeper in the block make sure you have at least a bolt diameter depth or you'll "never" torque it without repulling threads (never say never LOL)...otherwise, plan on fixing it.

Rule of thumb
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Feb. 2019 at 9:22pm
First blow all of the crud out of the stripped hole, then try a stud. If you have access to the correct tap, tap the hole to clean up the remaining threads. Blow the hole out again. Put a dab of Permatex #2 on the stud & install it in as deep as it will go, then back it out 1/4 of a turn. Next install the nut & torque it to the required specs.

If it does not pull, run it. If it pulls, OFF WITH IT'S HEAD!! The head has to come off for whatever tread repair you choose to do. I use Heli-coils as I have them sitting on the shelf. For me, they have worked every time. I have never tried the Time-Sert option, no need.

I know that you have figured out that if you choose to use head bolts to pull the engine, you need to make a bracket to pickup at least two & preferable three head bolts. One by itself will almost always pull out. This is why I almost never use head bolts. I have used the generator bracket, I have wrapped a strap around the water pump housing or the exhaust manifold, or any combination of the above.

On very very rare occasions, I have made a bracket & used the front head bolts. It is a last resort for me. The reasons for that are many, the possibility of pulling the treads, the need to make a bracket,  then to re-torque the head bolts immediately after removing the bracket, are the issues that I can think of right now. Oh, one more, I try hard not to mess with the integrity of the combustion chamber. That may lead to a blown head gasket.

IHTH, Cpt Logger.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3A Steve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2019 at 12:22am
Know its a bit off, but I am about to hoist a Willys L226 engine to get the oil pan off. Have the head, and manifolds off but it is still one darn heavy block of cast iron. Was planning to use two of the head bolts through the chains on the hoist. Now I'm re-thinking the plan. Can't see any good front or rear bolts that would allow me to remove the bellhousing. Any suggestions? (Have used two bolts in the block with the 134 engine and worked fine for me.... just this one is really heavy and this posting has me worried).

Thanks, Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2019 at 5:36am
This is the engine I made the brackets for. I used 2ea one foot long pieces of 4X4 angle iron & drilled 3ea. holes for the front 3 head bolts & the aft 3 head bolts on one flange of each bracket & 1ea. hole on the other flange. IIRC, I drilled all holes 1/2", 8ea. I put the upright flange with the one hole toward the middle of the engine. I used a clevis for each one to hook them to my chain.

I used the head, which had been removed, as a template for the holes in the brackets. I used the head bolt holes as a guides for my drill. I drilled one hole & bolted the bracket to the head. Drilled & bolted the next & drilled the last one that way.

When I was done pulling the engine, I marked/stamped each bracket "front" or "rear" & both of them were stamped L-226. I have them loaned out at the moment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3A Steve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2019 at 10:00pm
Have found some 1900 lb hooks at Tractor Supply and with 1/2" grade 8 bolts they seem pretty solid. I'm planning to try lifting the beast unless someone tells me its a bad idea. Have a lift plate on order but it really is meant to go on a carb mounting and I would just be lucky to get three or four bolts to match up. Of course I could wait for your tool to return and see if you could send it my way. 

Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2019 at 11:10pm
You could drill more holes in the lift plate if needed. The hooks should work just fine.

You are welcome to borrow these lift brackets when they come back. I have a call in to the fellow that has them. IDK how soon I will hear back on them. You may want to go ahead with your plan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3A Steve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Feb. 2019 at 11:21pm
Thanks. Appreciate the advice. The hooks look promising. Should be perfect for a 134.

Steve
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GloucesterBoy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GloucesterBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb. 2019 at 1:14am
Thank you men. Our forum always provides me with invaluable information, as well as comfort to try something I would previously have paid someone else to do. I really appreciate you all taking time to share your time and talent.

I just ordered (Walcks) 15 new studs and nuts(getting rid of the bolts), and a copper head gasket. I will make the proper repair and heed your advice.

in other news, I went to pep boys to purchase motor oil and a zinc additive. The counter help advised me that he does not sell a motor oil with zinc, nor does he sell a zinc additive to add to standard motor oil. Do I need to go to a speed shop of motor head shop for the zinc oil/additive that I read about in another thread several weeks ago? Is 10w40 the "acceptable " weight? I live in south jersey; four seasons ranging from occasional lows of 12-15 degree's to highs of 95 degrees. Any input(?).

Thank you again for the stripped block help!!
Jerry

'47 CJ2A #96661



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ndnchf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb. 2019 at 2:19am
Do you have an Advance auto parts nearby? They sell Lucas break in oil additive with zinc. Thats what I use.



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GloucesterBoy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GloucesterBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb. 2019 at 9:36pm
I do, ndnchf dude! Thank you for the link!
Jerry

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 48walker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2019 at 1:46am
For what it's worth, when I pulled the motor out of mine I used seat belt straps. Rated to some-hundreds of pounds each, no strain on head bolts, and readily available at a junkyard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3A Steve Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Feb. 2019 at 1:56am
The tractor supply lift hooks worked great. The L226 is hanging in my garage now (for several days). Next to knock the flywheel bolts back to the engine and attempt to drop the flywheel.What a design! Can't imagine the design process that was used on the Willys L226.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greaser007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Feb. 2019 at 3:22pm
GloucesterBoy
I think CPlogger has a great suggestion to try first - like he says, blow it out and try putting the torque to the stud.   If the stud pulls out, then you know what your other "choice" is, and that is the Heli-coil system.
I was just looking at the thread-depth the other day on a GPW block, and there is not much on some holes, and especially the holes that go through the block deck into the water jacket.   not much thread depth.   And, too, Logger may have a good point on the holes that have a bottom - seat the stud, and back off slightly. ( there are probably mixed-opinions on this ). And I am not an expert on engine machining, but I did grow up in an engine machine shop in the '60's, so you can see that my ideas are vey "out-dated" at best.
   If you do some snooping around in "hotrodders.com" forums, I am certain you may find some interesting information on the repair of pulled studs. And what I have learned is that on some block decks and head surfaces, there may be limitations on how much surface can be machined-off for re-surfacing. This normally is a concern when playing with "tall-deck" vs "standard-deck" height blocks and intermixing rotating-assembly components. all good stuff _ _ _

Oil with Zinc ! _ _ _ and flat-tappet-cams:
   Use Dello 400 or other oils designed for Diesel engines. (they have zinc)
I was just reading this today, and the failure of Comp Cams lobes due to the modern-day oils not having enough zinc, leading to pre-mature lobe failure.

http://www.rlengines.com/Web_Pages/Tech.html

http://www.rlengines.com/tech/Oil_is_Killing_our_Cars.pdf

by the way, after having driven semi-tractors back in the '70's, I have used Chevron Dello 400 in all of my engines (except chainsaws- but do use it for bar oil because it costs less that bar oil). I think the above articles explains that for old flat-tappet cams, that we should be using oil designed for the diesel engines. Personally, I am not a paraffin-based-oil-guy, nor do I run synthetics. My dad spent 20-years working for GM, and he has horror stories of synthetic's, which most problems arose from the dumb-consumer mixing synthetics with petro-based oils, which turned them to a latex-paint consistency like sludge.    _ _ _ .02-cents of.   hahaha

Steve:
   Those L225 Six's sure have a Weird bellhousing don't they ?

I picked up a L225 six to get the transmission, and I have not yet removed the bellhousing, but it appears to encompass the flywheel somehow, and does look to be very awkward to remove.


Edited by Greaser007 - 18 Feb. 2019 at 3:36pm
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