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"Improved" CJ2A Canvas Top

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jpet View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov. 2016 at 12:39am
Originally posted by Stev Stev wrote:

 ...... So..... we should use it to sew a top...
yeppers. If you read CCC-C-419F, I notes FED-STD-191 as the testing method, so the fabric has already been tested for shrinkage to Federal standards as I described previously.

I did not see anywhere in the data you posted where it says what class the fabric is but since it says "MILDEW RESISTANT, CCC-D-950 AND WATER REPELLENT, CCC-D-950", I think it can be assumed that it is class B.

.... the part I did not understand is where you said this fabric is the "non waxed" type. Vegetable wax (along with other .... stuff...), is the water repellant used per CCC-D-950. 3.8.1 (page 6). I wonder if you should ask Tim what his thoughts are on using Thompson sealer on the fabric. Sounds to me, like the fabric meets all the government specs and should work good as is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov. 2016 at 1:30am
JPet - The canvas is not waxed or creosoted like an old fashion military tarp - it dose not have the same smell or feel as the old WW2 canvas.  This is some kind of newer treatment.  It has a dry feel - not a waxy feel.  I don't know how else to explain it.  It is something that meets the spec but it is not the same old school topping.  It could be silicon or some other type of water proofing - probably to meet some EPA requirement.  I have poured water on it and the water rolls right off.

I agree it should be good to go as is and could be coated later if desired.  It would be nice to work with in its current state.

Thanks for you! 


Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov. 2016 at 5:51pm
If anyone is interested, here is a picture of my top when it was new:


This is #8 cotton duck 18 oz Type I, Class B, and meets the specifications listed in CCC-D-950F It has a little bit of baggyness to it (purposely).  In my experience, there is a slight initial shrinkage that is almost immediate.... like in days.  This shrinkage is good because all the loose sags pocket areas tighten up but the areas of the canvas that are supported by the frame structure do not.  Basically the top forms to the geometry of the bows, doors, and windshield and the top achieves a "fit" look very quickly.



The door curtains are not fastened at the bottom.  I left them a little long to allow for shrinkage since the bottom of my curtains are not fastened:


........ Here is the same top almost 2 years later and entering its third winter:


notice the canvas has changed to a khakii color which I think looks very cool:


notice how all the loose wrinkles are gone.  It still zips up:


The summer top portion, or roof, still fits as it did on day one, IMO because it is always supported and stretched by the bows  If you look at the rear side curtains, they still fit but they have shrunk up in the back corner where they are unsupported even though the fasteners still attach because they are supported.  I have noticed that the top portion will be banjo tight first thing on a cold morning but by afternoon will be relaxed after it has sat out in the sun.  Same thing goes for the door curtains.  When it is winter and cold, I have to zip my door curtains in the evening when I park in the unheated garage.  If I don't and just leave them hang loosly all night in the cold, I may not get them zipped shut in the morning.  Then in the afternoon/evening when they have sat out in the sun, they will relax and be quite easy to zip up.  Little by little, the parts of the canopy that are not stretched by the bows shrink some each year.  They can be stretched out though with a little pressure and some sun.  Some of the shrinkage in the doors might be due to the vinyl windows.  IDK.

... I don't know about other cotton fabrics.  Some may be better, others worse.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Nov. 2016 at 6:24pm
Wow you do nice work.  Great looking Jeep and top.   After reading your Sew Your Own Top tread and seeing the shrinkage, I am going to expecting to get 4 to 8 years out of a top and then plan on replacing it.

I like the picture showing the storm flap and door zippers.  I would like to put a storm flap forward of the front door zipper as it going up the cowl.  

Now if it is time for me to start sewing. 

Everyone - Thank for all the input.


Stev
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov. 2016 at 1:45am
The shrink test has begun.  I took the 21 ounce MILSPEC CCC-C-419 canvas and cut out two 10" x 10" pieces.  Then coated one piece on both sides with Thompson's multi surface water seal  and let the water seal dry for 24 hours.  Then submerged the pieces in two separate buckets containing rain water. They will soak in the rain water for 24 hours and then will go into a drying cycle for 6 days.  After that They will go back into the water for another 24 hour and then another 6 days of drying.  I plan on doing 4 cycles.  I will record the size of each sheet at the end of each 6 day drying cycle at the same time of the day.  The drying will be done between two panes of glass with a .025 air gap between the sheets.  The sheets of glass will be placed on a table on a black back ground.  The drying cycle will be done outside in a location that will have full sun during the day.   I will post the results.

Stev
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkamonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov. 2016 at 2:38am
Originally posted by Stev Stev wrote:

The shrink test has begun.  I took the 21 ounce <span style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, "Lucida Grande", sans-serif; font-size: 16px; : rgb248, 248, 252;">MILSPEC </span><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1477660626794_354369" style="font-size: medium; : rgb248, 248, 252; font-family: "Times New Roman";">CCC-C-419 canvas and cut out two 10" x 10" pieces.  Then coated one piece on both sides with Thompson's multi surface water seal  and let the water seal dry for 24 hours.  Then submerged the pieces in two separate buckets containing rain water. They will soak in the rain water for 24 hours and then will go into a drying cycle for 6 days.  After that They will go back into the water for another 24 hour and then another 6 days of drying.  I plan on doing 4 cycles.  I will record the size of each sheet at the end of each 6 day drying cycle at the same time of the day.  The drying will be done between two panes of glass with a .025 air gap between the sheets.  The sheets of glass will be placed on a table on a black back ground.  The drying cycle will be done outside in a location that will have full sun during the day.   I will post the results.</span>
<span style="font-size: medium; : rgb248, 248, 252; font-family: "Times New Roman";">
</span>


It seems like you have a very scientific back ground and mind. I'll wait for the results of your test.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov. 2016 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by Stev Stev wrote:

12.          Still need to design the rear curtain - the 1946 trail Jeep has a water can and a tire mounted on the back – so a zippered arch window like the CJ2A style might make for better access without deal with the straps around the rear mounted gear.  JPet has cautioned me on the shrinkage I may encounter on the canvas and its potential problems with the zipper.

One idea that I got about using zippers (by accident), is that if you use them, its a good idea to sew them on back behind the edge like this:


.... this way, if any shrinkage does occur, either in a year or 10 years, you can cut and re-sew the zipper closer to the edge to allow for it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec. 2016 at 7:44pm
Shrink Test results on NSN is 8305-00-242-3593 /MILSPEC CCC-C-419 201 oz OD Canvas

I did the test as described in the thread - here are the results

DATA     Control     Thompsons Water Seal    
      Warp Weft   Warp  Weft  
Start     10" 10"   10" 10"  
Week 1      9.90" 10"   9.95" 10"  
Week 2     9.8" 10"   9.90" 10"  
Week 3     9.70" 10"   9.85" 10"  
Week 4     9.70" 10"   9.8" 10"  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Dec. 2016 at 8:34pm
So I am seeing 3% shrink in the Warp (machine direction) and no shrink in the weft (weave) direction. Adding Thompson's water seal retards the speed of the shrink but does not stop the shrink.  

The fact that this Mil Spec CCC-C-419 21oz OD Canvas is not shrinking in the weft (weave/cross direction) might be something that could be used when building a top.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Dec. 2016 at 9:20pm
JPet,

A bit of advice on fasteners.  I am trying to find the Black Common Sense Turn Button fasteners 91-xb-78317-1g that are used on the top. These have the rivet style single whole bottom.  I am thinking these are the way to go over the tap style turn button fasteners.  Any idea where to get these in black.  

I did find some original Curtain Fasteners.  Picked up a box with 12 NOS fasteners – real shot in the dark. These are ones with the sockets that mount into the tub.  Four are required per CJ2A top.  They are missing the backing rings but i think I can find or make some.

I also pick up a set of the much hated Omix-ADA top bows.  I will fix them to make the work base on my old original set.  They arrived last week I have not had a chance to compare them and find out what is the issue.   

Hoping to get started soon aside from the fasteners I have everything else.

Stev

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Dec. 2016 at 2:39am
I buy mine from Scovil Fasteners:

http://www.dotfasteners.com/common-sense-turn-buttons.html

If you can use nickel plated double tall ones, I have about 1000 that I have no use for.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkel Dale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec. 2016 at 6:09am
Love the whole thing. Care to post up cut sizes and the pattern?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar. 2017 at 3:47pm
I designed and sewed a five piece top for David's Detroit to Moab (April 2nd 2017 he leaves Detroit driving to Moab in his 2A ) trip using some of the design ideas contained in this thread.

This is an off roading trail top / road trip top meant to hold up in heavy weather and designed for easy of use on the trail.  The main top is a WW2 designed variant of a Summer top using the roll bar as the middle bow and a simple conduit rear bow as supports.  

I used the current military vinyl (re-purposed surplus tarps) as the fabric for this project, attached the side curtain with zippers to the Summer top, Used  the stock CJ2A buckles attaching points, Designed a Bio-Mimicry new style door - "Bat Wing Style Door".  The Bat Wing door allows for it to have structure when fully deployed as a closed door, the top section can be unhooked and folded in to the Jeep to provide a open window (so you can get coffee at a drive through).  The door can be further unhooked and folded / gathered along the windshield out of the way for no door trail uses.

I will see if I can get some pictures loaded.

David still has to mount his rear bow pockets in order to get the top to deploy tightly in the back.  His CJ2A has a 3A windshield and door attaching point that were used to attach the Summer top and front door edges.

This project was completed in about 1 week in the evenings plus a long Saturday.

David, Good travels on the road to Moab!

Stev


 


Edited by Stev - 29 Mar. 2017 at 4:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cavalier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar. 2017 at 5:37pm
The door isn't on in this pic, and the rear looks a little floppy, but that's just because I didn't have the right provisions for the rear bows (we just duct-taped the rear bows on for now). 

The top is excellent. Thank you a million times over, Bob. I'll keep you updated with this top as I journey across the U.S. to Utah.

-David
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Mar. 2017 at 7:07pm
The Bat Wind door is in the folded position for storage against the Passenger front windshield piller in the Photo David Posted above. 

Stev / Bob
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar. 2017 at 3:59am
Bat Wing Door closed



Edited by russnj - 28 Mar. 2017 at 6:18pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar. 2017 at 9:08am
That is the most innovative idea for a Jeep door I have ever seen! Excellent work!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar. 2017 at 1:57am










Great work Bob! Tell us all about them!
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