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quick diff carrier preload question |
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LesBerg 
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Joined: 09 Apr. 2014 Location: Athol, ID Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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 Topic: quick diff carrier preload questionPosted: 22 May 2017 at 4:27am |
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I've got a good pattern on my used gearset and I'm mostly ready to button it up.
BUT: Per the USM, I measured the shim packs needed on each side and ended up with: .040 on the passender/ring gear side .020 on the driver side I added the .015 to the DS per the USM for the total shim pack and have a good gear pattern (after futzing with pinion depth. But I can load the carrier easily into the case without a spreader or having to cock the bearing cups. Should I add another .003 or so to the PS to tighten it up? The carrier has no side play, but I worry that the bearing preload is too loose. Thoughts?
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 7:13am |
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Les, you need some preload. Either spread the case .015" and put shims on each side to make things just snug as you slide the case in; or without a spreader, do the same add of shims on each side and the case should hammer in with as deadblow hammer with just a little difficulty.
If you don't have any side play now but the case goes into the housing easily, add about .008" shims to each side and try that for fit. If still loose try .010" on each side. The important thing is to add an equal amount to each side or you will mess your pattern up. Always check your pattern after you think you have the preload set. I've set up hundreds of ring and pinions in the 18 years I owned my driveline shop, but I had the factory tooling to do it with. Doing it with out the tooling takes patience and plenty of time. Good luck. Take a picture of the pattern you come up with so we can see how things came out. Hope that helps... |
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46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub)
U.S. Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer(ret.) U.S. Army Vietnam veteran and damned proud of it. |
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LesBerg
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Joined: 09 Apr. 2014 Location: Athol, ID Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 3:56pm |
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Sounds good, thanks. I was pretty sure that's what I needed to do. I'll get it buttoned up this evening.
Nice to hear from an authority. I worked at a drive line shop in Austin for three or four years, but i was an R&R mechanic in the 'back shop' working on heavy trucks. I've set up a few diffs, but they've been Ford 9" and Mopar 8 3/4 units. Edited by LesBerg - 22 May 2017 at 4:01pm |
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 3:58pm |
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Just don't spread the case more than .015" or leave the spreader applied an extended period of time.
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46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub)
U.S. Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer(ret.) U.S. Army Vietnam veteran and damned proud of it. |
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LesBerg
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Joined: 09 Apr. 2014 Location: Athol, ID Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 4:01pm |
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Roger that
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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LesBerg
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 4:20pm |
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Here's the pattern, though it's hard to see. Backlash is right on .010" - on the loose side of tolerances, but I'm not sure if I should set it tighter on a used gear set.
Drive side:  coast:  and I still need to check runout...
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 5:16pm |
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From what I see, your pattern is good to go and for a used gearset .010" lash is fairly typical. Runout is probably OK unless your case is distorted, which is a rare event.
If you ever have to do this again, pick a color of orange or yellow to pull the pattern with. It is a little easier to distinguish a pattern. I used chrome yellow oil color artists paint straight out of the tube when I had my shop. |
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46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub)
U.S. Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer(ret.) U.S. Army Vietnam veteran and damned proud of it. |
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LesBerg
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 5:32pm |
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That's an amazing idea! It never occurred to me to use something that wasn't specifically for this purpose.
Thank you for the help, I appreciate it.
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 5:43pm |
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Well, I'm still learning a lot about working on jeeps but if it has to do with axles, driveshafts, transmissions, or transfer cases I have probably run across the problem at least once in my career. On engine work I'm a complete noob...and let's not even talk about carburetors...Ha, Ha.
Don't forget to put gear oil in the axle after you have it buttoned up... I had a customer I sold a ring and pinion set for a 3/4 ton Ford Dana 60 rear axle...he forgot.  He came back in a few days later and had to get another set from me. He was so excited to get his truck back on the road that he completely forgot the oil. He didn't forget the second time...expensive lesson.
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46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub)
U.S. Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer(ret.) U.S. Army Vietnam veteran and damned proud of it. |
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pjensen641
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 7:05pm |
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When setting mine up, I ended up with having the bearings slide in about 1/3rd of the way before I had to get the dead blow out. I tried the factory recommended preload and it was way too tight. Damaged the bearing cups when I tried to install.
I think it is really difficult to get the measurements for the starting point to add the recommended preload. 15 thou might be right, but I must have overestimated the baseline shim stack.
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LesBerg
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 7:21pm |
Oh god. When I worked at Austin Drivetrain, I hated it when customers hung around when I was working on their rigs. The constant barrage of questions broke my concentration. I kept bitching about it to my foreman who mostly just shrugged (he was a really great guy, actually, and took a LOT of crap from me). One day, I was installing the rear diff in a Champion concrete pump truck and the driver and owner were hammering me with questions and trying to hurry the job along. They're tough to get the rear diff into place. They have no suspension in the back, just giant rubber blocks so you can't jack one side of the forward rear axle up to sneak the diff under it, and the truck was too heavy for the air-over-hydraulic bottle jack. Anyway, I was so stressed out by the constant customer chatter that I forgot to put oil in the diff after I installed it, and it shredded on the test drive. Boss was pissed, foreman was pissed, customer was livid - $3000 worth of dead parts and another three days of downtime on the truck. I screwed up - no getting around that, but it was the last time Rick let customers hang out in the work area while I was working. I'm no master mechanic by any means, not even certified outside the Army. I've been rebuilding carbs since I was 9 and they still confound me. |
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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LesBerg
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Joined: 09 Apr. 2014 Location: Athol, ID Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 7:26pm |
I measured my carrier stacks before I got the pinion depth correct. It may be influencing what's going on. I couldn't even get the carrier out when I first took it apart. I built a case spreader to get it done. Edited by LesBerg - 22 May 2017 at 7:28pm |
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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LesBerg
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 7:32pm |
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Now that the pinion depth is correct, should I pull the carrier shims and re-measure?
I can if I need to. I'd rather do it right than have to hunt down another gear set in six months. I plan on driving the hell out of this thing camping, hunting and fishing.
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 8:17pm |
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If your pinion depth is correct, then pull a pattern. The pattern I saw looked pretty fair...so the problem is no preload?
add some preload shims and pull another pattern. If you have preload and the pattern is acceptable for a used gearset and the lash is within the range for a used gear set (.008 ~ .012) then it should be good to go. You're the one on point, but I have your six if you have questions or concerns...no one said this was easy... 
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46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub)
U.S. Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer(ret.) U.S. Army Vietnam veteran and damned proud of it. |
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LesBerg
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Joined: 09 Apr. 2014 Location: Athol, ID Status: Offline Points: 1554 |
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 8:52pm |
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The pattern I posted above was at the current shim setting for pinion and carrier. I measured to get the carrier shim pack with the pinion shim pack at about .016" Current pinion shim pack is at .026.
The problem is simply lack of preload on the carrier bearings, even though I added the .015" indicated by the USM. Lock and load, moving out to add the .008 to each side.  Edited by LesBerg - 22 May 2017 at 8:55pm |
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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LesBerg
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Posted: 22 May 2017 at 10:44pm |
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shims are in and the carrier is installed. I had to use the spreader to get it in, pounding didn't work. I had to spread it to .016" to get it in.
Threads are sealed and torqued. Backlash measures .011" and the pattern moved slightly heel-ward on the coast side and slightly toe-ward on the drive side. Not much though, the contact patches might have sifted all of 1/32 of an inch. Bolts are torqued and sealed. I'll get the cover on it and install the slinger and seal. Last question: My torque wrench tops out at 150ft/lbs. Should I see if I can get one that hits 200-250? (like I don't know the answer is 'yes') |
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1948 CJ2A 157713 24" Stretch "Old Ironsides"
1st Armored Div 6th Infantry Reg 3rd Infantry Bn Headquarters Company #161 rubigo in quo speramus - "In Rust we Trust" |
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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A
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Posted: 23 May 2017 at 1:34am |
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Sounds like you have been busy today...as long as there are no sharp edges on the pattern you should be just fine.
Yes, beg, borrow or steal the larger torque wrench. The torque spec for the pinion nut is 200 ~ 220 ft/lb. You would be overextending your 150 ft/lb wrench. If you are using the OE castle nut and it doesn't line up for a cotter key, take it around to where it will line up...don't back the nut off. If you happen to be using a newer style torque-prevailing (distorted thread) nut then torque it to spec and don't worry about it. |
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46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub)
U.S. Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer(ret.) U.S. Army Vietnam veteran and damned proud of it. |
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Bruce W
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Posted: 23 May 2017 at 3:09am |
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"I used chrome yellow oil color artists paint straight out of the tube when I had my shop."
When I first learned how to pattern a gearset, we used red lead.
 Probably cant get it any more.  But I still have some.  BW |
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It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.
Happy Trails! Good-bye, Good Luck, and May the Good Lord Take a Likin' to You! We Have Miles to Jeep, Before We Sleep. |
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SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A wrote: