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Rear locking hubs

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jeepjunkie View Drop Down
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    Posted: 02 Apr. 2014 at 6:21am
I have a '48 CJ2 that I plan to use as an every day driver. Mostly on, but occasionally off the road. I am told that rear wheel lockers were popular for towing purposes in order to save wear & tear on the drive train. Does anyone know if they are still being made, and by whom? Many thanks,
Jeep junkie

When the damage done by the jerks that I trusted is repaired, that is. (Hmmmmm, who was the real sucker here?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HillBillE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr. 2014 at 6:39am
Yes, they still make the kits, at least for some D44's axles.

Problem with the narrower Jeeps, is you may have to have custom axle shafts made.

That shouldn't be bad, as they are just a shaft with splines on each end.

Looks like WARN may have discontinued the kits, but I have seen where guys piece them together.

Here's a write up from JP mag:


http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/transmission-drivetrain/154-0910-early-dana-44-full-floater-axle-kit/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr. 2014 at 6:53am
Warn has discontinued the FF rear kits. I have ne installed in my cj2a Spicer 41 rear axle. The kit was complete with chrome-moly axles and all the hubs, etc. A very good unit, and strong. Works well for towing -- I've towed mine thousands for miles with no problems.

Herm has a rear FF kit for the Dana 44, which can be combined with Warn locking hubs. Here is a link: http://hermtheoverdriveguy.com/?page_id=1607




Edited by Mike S - 02 Apr. 2014 at 7:17am
'47 CJ2A -- #114542
Warn FF D41 rear
Lock-Right locker
11" drum brakes
Dual master cylinder
T90C Transmission
16 X 6 Jeep truck wheels
Cooper STT Pro tires
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bretto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr. 2014 at 1:18pm
Would he be able to convert a full float mb/gpw axle? That might involve having to re-gear if it isn't the same ratio as the front.
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Metcalf View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr. 2014 at 4:03pm
You can use D44 side gears in a D41 I think. That would allow you to use Herm's kit. 

You can also just make your own kit. A front spindle will bolt on the rear axle if you turn down the rear lip to fit in the bearing pocket. Then you basically just bolt on a front bearing hub. The hard part has always been the axle shaft. The factory front spindle can only support a 10 or 27 spline outer spline diameter. You can't simply pull the axle out the spindle, you have to stick the axle in and stick the spindle over. You are limited to a 10 spline or 27 spline hub....which is kinda weak really. The hubs where not really designed for full day to day service in a rear axle in my opinion.

I did mine a little different. I converted an older cj5 D44 housing. It was a 19 spline unit. I swapped the carrier over to 30 spline. I made an aluminum spacer that adapted the bearing pocket to the spindle. This allowed me to make the axle slightly wider to match an open knuckle front Dana 30. I found a jeep spindle from yukon that was built to take a 30 spline stub axle ( basically the keyway or the spindle nut system is cut less deep....and the ID bored out ). This allowed me to have Dutchman make a 30 spline FLANGED full float axle like you see on a 3/4 ton+ pickup. The axle bolts directly to the wheel bearing hub. You can't unlock it, but this is WAY stronger than a 27 spline hub. 


Another option would be to try and use a set of 10 spline D23(?) factory MB/GPW shafts in the rear using the front spindle conversion method on a D41. I don't know if the length would be correct, and you don't get a hub. 

 
42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 48cj2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr. 2014 at 5:57pm
How about another front axle and get four wheel steering to boot:
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote duffer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr. 2014 at 5:58pm
Nice setup Metcalf.  I'm presently running the old 19 spline ff that Advance Adapters used to make and it has worked well to this point but I'm not even thinking about using it with the new engine.  However, those should last next to forever behind either version of the 134 and most V6's.
 
I wouldn't even consider the D23.  One of my wheeling friends back in the late 60's was using the stock MB axle and he was lucky to get two trips without twisting one of the flanges off using relatively small tires (31's IIRC).  Probably the weakest axle ever used in a Jeep but at least the wheels stay on when they break.
 
I'm still waffling on a new rear axle for the 3B but a full float 9" is presently at the top of the list.
1955 3B: 441sbc,AGE 4 speed transmission, Teralow D18w/Warn OD, 4.11:1 D44's/ARB's, glass tub & fenders, aluminum hood/grill, 8274, York OBA, Premier Power Welder; 67 CJ5: 225,T86AA, D18, 4.88's, OD
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mike S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr. 2014 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by 48cj2a 48cj2a wrote:

How about another front axle and get four wheel steering to boot:
 

I'd love to see how the rear steering control is set up. 
'47 CJ2A -- #114542
Warn FF D41 rear
Lock-Right locker
11" drum brakes
Dual master cylinder
T90C Transmission
16 X 6 Jeep truck wheels
Cooper STT Pro tires
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Metcalf View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr. 2014 at 6:09pm
Thanks. 

I found a lot of people running the 27 or 10 spline ( outer ) sized full float conversions that where having some issues, especially with rear lockers, especially with larger tires, most with V6 engines. 

The old Warn kits used an internal spline style rear bearing hub which allowed the use of a 19 or 30 spline drive slug or internal hub. I thought about going that way, but I wanted all 4 corners to match. 

If I was going to build another one I would do internal spline outers all around. 

The 9" is a GREAT axle till it comes to locker selection. Auto lockers are easy, but the select-able options are limited and have issues. One other thing to keep in mind is that even the 31 spline ford stuff might not fit through most D44 sized spindles....30 spline is close, 31 spline might be an issue. You could always step up to 35 spline stuff but that gets pretty expensive pretty quick! 

If I was going to do a 31 spline 9" I would probably just use a D44 low pinion with the newer/better JK gears which are pretty much 9" diameter. You don't get the 3rd pinion bearing that makes the ford 9" stuff so strong but JK stuff has a bigger pinion spline than the Ford 9". The D44 also has a TON of locker options.....just about anything you can imagine. With quality 30 spline allow floater shafts you shouldn't have many issues unless your running 37" sticky tires or something. 



42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willys54wagon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr. 2014 at 2:30am

and no one referenced the infamous doc vern?


http://www.vernco.com/RearAxle/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HillBillE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr. 2014 at 6:28am
Originally posted by willys54wagon willys54wagon wrote:

and no one referenced the infamous doc vern?


http://www.vernco.com/RearAxle/



Cool!  Doc mentioned Chuck Pedretti in that article, I wheel with Chuck on occasion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr. 2014 at 4:48pm

My Dana 44 will be getting a set up similar to Metcalf's- Dutchman axles and all. It'll be behind the Fhead- overkill, but that's the look and function I have in mind.

Metcalf- could you post some pics and more info on the aluminum spacer you used and the Yukon-supplied spindle?

Also, could you describe how you took your measurements to give to Dutchman so they could build the axle? I talked to them months ago and they more or less need blueprints to go by.

(I'll be keeping 11" drums on the axle)



Edited by gunner - 03 Apr. 2014 at 4:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Apr. 2014 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by gunner gunner wrote:

My Dana 44 will be getting a set up similar to Metcalf's- Dutchman axles and all. It'll be behind the Fhead- overkill, but that's the look and function I have in mind.

Metcalf- could you post some pics and more info on the aluminum spacer you used and the Yukon-supplied spindle?

Also, could you describe how you took your measurements to give to Dutchman so they could build the axle? I talked to them months ago and they more or less need blueprints to go by.

(I'll be keeping 11" drums on the axle)


I made the spacer. 




I started with large round bar stock. Cut a 2.5" section on the bandsaw. Chucked it in a lathe. Faced both sides and bored a hole for the axle in the middle that was something like 1.5" dia. Turned a pocket on the front about 3/8" deep for the spindle to index in. Then flipped it over and turned a snout on the other side that would fit into the bearing pocket on the axle. The effective length of the spacer was cut to be about 1.5" for my application all said and done. I transferred the bolt pattern from the spindle to the spacer and drilled 6 holes through it. I used grade 8 bolts that go all the way through from the axle flange, thru the spacer, and through the spindle to hold it all together. 

The spindle is....

Part number is from Yukon, YA W38103

This spindle uses the larger ID inner bearing so you have to have the right wheel bearing hub or slightly modify the earlier unit. 

For the axle shafts. 

After I had everything mocked up I just stuck a tape measure down the axle till it hit the spider gears in the diff ( make sure it goes all the way in!) I took that measurement and took off about 3/16" for clearance. I measured the hub pattern using a set of calipers and gave them that....

The hub bolt pattern is 6 on 3.437"
Hole size was 25/64th ( I thought this was a little big but was Dutchman's recommendation )

I also had to have them reduce the shaft OD down to the major diameter on the splines to it would pass through the spindle, which was another upcharge option. 

I hope that helps! 

42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gunner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr. 2014 at 5:41am

Perfect!

One thing, though: you say you took the measurement to the spider gears and then took a bit off for clearance. Any idea how a powerlock unit would affect that measurement if at all? Unit is currently a 19 spline but I'll change it out to a 30 spline. I took a look at it a few days ago and it has a spacer block, as I recall, in the middle of the unit. I suspect a measurement up to that block and then take a bit off as you did with the spiders. Any ideas on that?

Originally posted by Metcalf Metcalf wrote:

Originally posted by gunner gunner wrote:

My Dana 44 will be getting a set up similar to Metcalf's- Dutchman axles and all. It'll be behind the Fhead- overkill, but that's the look and function I have in mind.

Metcalf- could you post some pics and more info on the aluminum spacer you used and the Yukon-supplied spindle?

Also, could you describe how you took your measurements to give to Dutchman so they could build the axle? I talked to them months ago and they more or less need blueprints to go by.

(I'll be keeping 11" drums on the axle)


I made the spacer. 




I started with large round bar stock. Cut a 2.5" section on the bandsaw. Chucked it in a lathe. Faced both sides and bored a hole for the axle in the middle that was something like 1.5" dia. Turned a pocket on the front about 3/8" deep for the spindle to index in. Then flipped it over and turned a snout on the other side that would fit into the bearing pocket on the axle. The effective length of the spacer was cut to be about 1.5" for my application all said and done. I transferred the bolt pattern from the spindle to the spacer and drilled 6 holes through it. I used grade 8 bolts that go all the way through from the axle flange, thru the spacer, and through the spindle to hold it all together. 

The spindle is....

Part number is from Yukon, YA W38103

This spindle uses the larger ID inner bearing so you have to have the right wheel bearing hub or slightly modify the earlier unit. 

For the axle shafts. 

After I had everything mocked up I just stuck a tape measure down the axle till it hit the spider gears in the diff ( make sure it goes all the way in!) I took that measurement and took off about 3/16" for clearance. I measured the hub pattern using a set of calipers and gave them that....

The hub bolt pattern is 6 on 3.437"
Hole size was 25/64th ( I thought this was a little big but was Dutchman's recommendation )

I also had to have them reduce the shaft OD down to the major diameter on the splines to it would pass through the spindle, which was another upcharge option. 

I hope that helps! 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Metcalf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Apr. 2014 at 3:37pm
Originally posted by gunner gunner wrote:

Perfect!

One thing, though: you say you took the measurement to the spider gears and then took a bit off for clearance. Any idea how a powerlock unit would affect that measurement if at all? Unit is currently a 19 spline but I'll change it out to a 30 spline. I took a look at it a few days ago and it has a spacer block, as I recall, in the middle of the unit. I suspect a measurement up to that block and then take a bit off as you did with the spiders. Any ideas on that?

I am running a rear power-lok also, also converted to 30 spline. 

As far as I can tell the little block in the middle is only there for the factory axle system since the bearings/axles basically have to preload against each other. I removed mine and it has been fine. 

When I measured I just took a little off the measurement, this keeps the end of the axle shaft away from the cross shaft assembly. 

If you want to keep the power-lok I would suggest getting the aggressive clutch pack for it. Honestly, for the price of the 30 spline internals and clutch pack your not THAT far off from being able to get a real locker. I have run the power-lok rear with an autolocker front and REALLY like that combo overall. I have taken my flat fender places I never thought it would go like that. The power-lok does leave a little bit on the table though at the upper end of performance. I will be changing the rear carrier out for a selectable locker in the near future. I will probably be going with the Ox-locker. 

Even in very difficult terrain I find that running locked in the front and open ( or limited slip ) in the rear really helps chassis dynamics, especially in a short wheelbase. 


42 MB that had a one night stand with a much younger 69 CJ5 and a 50s GM truck.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeepjunkie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Apr. 2014 at 8:14am
My thanks to you all who answered my yell for help on the rear hubs. And a special thanks toHillBillie,
I bookmarked the link you sent. Now I have to decide which of my children do I pawn to pay for that really cool kit, Jeep junkie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JeeperJim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan. 2018 at 7:09pm
Unfortunately the Vernco link is dead.

Has anyone ever tried using the D23 axle shafts as "metcalf" suggested above.
I have an old MB axle and was thinking about harvesting the axle shafts to use on my Dana 44
rear axle that is going to me modified with D27 front spindles and hubs or by using the MB D23 spindles and hubs.
I guess I need to figure out what the spline count is for the 23 and 44.
I only want this for an occasional flat tow to another state.
Kicking ideas around while getting over Type A flu this week.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan. 2018 at 8:05pm
cj2ajim,

Flu is really lousy this year.  

I built a full floater using the Vernco method years ago.  It involved turning down the flage on the end of the spindles so it would fit into the stock rear axle flange.  Then taking a long side standard CJ 10 spline axle and a long side 10 spline axle from a wagon and turning them and cutting the splines.

Can be done.  Just make sure you do a good job cutting the splines or you will have to make a second set.

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