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Serial Number and Block Number Matching?

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sconsalv View Drop Down
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    Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 12:56am
This is my first post but first off wanted to say this forum has helped me greatly and very thankful.  I have 1948 CJ2A that has an engine serial number of J189240A  and a newer VIN tag( Willys reproduction) that was stamped 18924AB from two owners ago when a new body was put on ( Willys body that was never in production). The serial number on the VIN tag has history going back to 3 owners with the 18924AB number. However when the owner I purchased it from bought the Jeep the state issued a new VIN Cry  because of a new VIN plate being stamped that didn't match the factory stamped engine. Now Im trying to go back to the original serial number and my question is , Would there be a reason the stamped serial number on the plate be missing a zero? It was a valid serial number for over 20 years with no issues and labeled as a 48'. I'm confused an frustrated at the same time. Thoughts? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 2:01am
This is just my opinion, but if the state is satisfied with the VIN, I would leave it alone. As long as you have a valid title, the Jeep doesn't care what its serial number is. Trying to get serial number and titles changed can be a huge PITA, and the state is usually the ultimate winner.

You know what year it is and from that you can order the correct parts for repairs and that is most of the battle, assuming that prior owners haven't installed salad parts for you to deal with.

Get it running and drive it. Enjoy the ride and don't sweat the paperwork as long as you have a good title.

Of course, this is just my opinion and if you are trying to do a showroom restoration this wouldn't apply.

Welcome to the forum. Show us some pix...
46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub)

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sconsalv View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sconsalv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 2:24am
I really do appreciate the input and your not the only person telling me to just focus my energy else where, I guess its the principle of the matter and the nostalgic value. But here she is. The body is the original paint. I believe the paint is green metallic or emerald green
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WillyBill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 3:27am
Your engine serial of J189240A sounds like a good serial number for a 1948 CJ2A engine but the original frame tag, body number, and serial number would have been about 10000-12000 less than that, say 177XXX-179XXX. If that engine is original to that frame the original serial number would not have been 18924AB anyway. 

Edited by WillyBill - 22 Aug. 2017 at 3:30am
1947 CJ2A #146428
1947 CJ2A #103567
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbullism Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 3:41am
My favorite part is that the state felt it necessary to issue a new vin cuz the sn didnt match the esn... and they never did.

Im in the middle.  You have paperwork showing you own it.  If you want to invest time money and face palming chasing the original number have at it... be prepared to "lose"... the fall back is where you are now.

If not slated for a museum resto probably not all that important, but its your money, your time.  That said, when I bought mine a numbers matching correct title was important to me, and I likely paid more than i should have because of my trepidation.  It likely wouldnt drive any different with a legal title than with a "correct" title...  .02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 5:33am
I got news for anyone thinking a Museum quality restoration is going to be more accurate then the crap we drive around now is delusional. I have seen maybe 20 different Willys Vehicles Jeeps Pickups Wagons even a couple Jeepsters in real honest to god pay a lot of money to get in the door auto museums and I can stand on my side of the rope in front of each one and tear them apart as to incorrect parts after market parts and mixed up parts. And they won't even let me look under the hood! I do the same thing with Pickups like 1950's Chevy's. One noted museum here in Tacoma WA has a 1951 Chevy 3100 with a 235 dressed up like a Blue Flame out of a 53-54 corvette (minus the multiple carbs) And those pickups came with a 216 I know my dad had one he and his brick layer partner bought new and then I had a 51 and a 52 3100 custom cabs.

Chug A Lug
1948 2A Body Customized
1949 3A W/S
1957 CJ5 Frame Modified
Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 8:01am
With few exceptions most I see in Museums are not properly restored. "museum Quality" is now considered and insult when it comes to originality
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sconsalv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 2:46pm
< ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0" ="text/"> I hear you on the losing part. If the stickers and I mean actual VIN sticker get removed from either the restoration process of through time I'd have to go through the reconstruction title process hear in PA. Spoke with NC DMV and apparently the original VIN tag went missing probably because it was rusty and such but the owner had the title with that VIN and decided to order a repo VIN Plate and he stamped it on the new body. The engine I do believe it is the original, fairly certain and is the only thing on the jeep calling it a 1948. I'm going to trying one other options and then call it quits and move on. Like trying to figure out whether or not to keep the original paint or repaint it .  Thanks again for all the input. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 4:01pm
Is there a frame tag?  Or the signs of a frame tag?

I'll throw in some additional thoughts that have been covered.

You might be lucky enough to have the original engine serial number, but this isn’t enough to determine the original VIN.  As mentioned above, there is a “skew” factor.  More engines were produced than CJ2As.  And this skew grows larger as the production years pass.

If you were able to find the engine just before, and or after yours…and if you’re lucky enough to find these engines still installed in the original 2As…and these 2As still have their correct VINs, you’ll be good to go.  Easy, right? 

At this point, the only true way to know the original VIN is to find original paperwork for this 2A.

I know this sort of sucks, But Willys Overland and City/State jurisdictions didn't do us any favors.


1- 1946 CJ2A   
2- 1949 CJ3A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 4:02pm
Welcome.  Can you post some more pictures of your 1948?  

Sides, rear, under the hood and so on.

Be happy to have a title.


Stev
1946 CJ2A Trail Jeep (The Saint), 1948 CJ2A Lefty Restored
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sconsalv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 4:53pm
< ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0" ="text/"> I check the frame for a tag which should be on the d/s front inside of the frame and only see where it would of been attached. The body , which from what I was told is an original body that was never put in production and was in a box prior to it being on the jeep. Their is a serial number on that but that wont do me any good. I guess Im really trying to preserve as much as possible . Before we bought the jeep wife and I agreed on picket gray as a color but after finding out the paint was original but that suddenly stopped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WillyBill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 5:55pm
Take a look at the CJ2A Research Database. SN 175088 has engine J187657. SN 177108 has engine J189747.  Your engine J189240A (the A means it had 0.010 inch undersized rod and main journals when new if I remember correctly) would put your original SN somewhere between those two SNs. 

When my 1947 CJ2A was first titled they listed the engine number, not the serial number, as the VIN. If they did they same with yours, and then your original body tag, frame tag, and serial number tag were lost, they probably just stamped a replacement tag with the number on the title, which would have been the engine number and not the original serial number. 
1947 CJ2A #146428
1947 CJ2A #103567
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sconsalv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 7:26pm
< ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0" ="text/">I don't believe, after doing some research, that Willys ever stamped a serial# on the frame that year right? it was just a tag. I've been able to go as far back as 1999 with that serial # ending in "AB" Which was in Florida but they have no records apparently. Ermm . Though I didn't feel very confident in the customer service.  I guess my goal now is to get the title transferred and take it from there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote athawk11 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 7:46pm

Originally posted by sconsalv sconsalv wrote:

I check the frame for a tag which should be on the d/s front inside of the frame and only see where it would of been attached.

The Frame Tag was actually moved to the driver side, outside face of the frame rail fairly early in CJ2A production.


Originally posted by sconsalv sconsalv wrote:

 The body , which from what I was told is an original body that was never put in production and was in a box prior to it being on the jeep. Their is a serial number on that but that wont do me any good.

 

This is interesting.  You are suggesting that this is a NOS (New-Old-Stock) tub.  I didn’t know there was such a thing.  Can you share the tub stamped Serial Number? 

1- 1946 CJ2A   
2- 1949 CJ3A
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bruce W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 8:38pm
athawk11 said: "The Frame Tag was actually moved to the driver side, outside face of the frame rail fairly early in CJ2A production."

And then it was done away with entirely sometime during 1948, and the firewall serial number tag was the only one left, except the body tag, which doesn't count here.  BW
It is NOT a Jeep Willys! It is a Willys jeep.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sconsalv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Aug. 2017 at 8:48pm
< ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0" ="text/">

This is interesting.  You are suggesting that this is a NOS (New-Old-Stock) tub.  I didn’t know there was such a thing.  Can you share the tub stamped Serial Number? 

[/QUOTE]

 
 
The body is in great condition and paint is pretty good for a 48. Here is the tag number (CJ21299012 ) Apparently two owners ago had a spare body that was in a crate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug. 2017 at 1:34am
The only Toe Board Gussets that were stamped were mid 48 and older. And none of them would have been stamped with CJ2 only the ACM number. And that number is WAY high for a CJ-2A

Also if this is a NOS Tub why is it missing the stake pockets behind the seats and on the back corners? This would lead me to think this is a reproduction Tub.

Where is the Ignition switch hole in the dash? Can we get a left side and right side photo?

has that had a Shackle Reversal done on the front?
Chug A Lug
1948 2A Body Customized
1949 3A W/S
1957 CJ5 Frame Modified
Late 50's 134L 9.25"clutch T90A D18 (1.25") D44/30 flanged E-Locker D25 5.38 Since 1962
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Aug. 2017 at 2:20am
I'm betting that it is an old MD Juan tub. They come in a box.
46 CJ-2A #64462 "Ol' Red" (bought April 1969)(second owner)(12 V, 11" brakes, M-38 frame, MD Juan tub)

U.S. Coast Guard Chief Petty Officer(ret.)
U.S. Army Vietnam veteran and damned proud of it.



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