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Side by side chaser

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Flatfender Ben View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flatfender Ben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Side by side chaser
    Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 4:10am
Hello all
Looking for advice and recommendations on my next project. 

My goal is to build a FlatFender that can (COMFORTABLY) keep up with a modern side by side. 
(My brother inlaw Asked me when I was buying a side by side) Ouch
AINT GOING TO HAPPEN!!
So...challenge accepted!!
My 1st goal is a better ride. 
A lot of my desert trips Consist of 20-30 miles of ruff gravel roads. And two track trails that are covered with extremely ruff lava rock. 
The stock suspension of a flatfender is just to ruff for the higher speeds needed to keep up with a side by side. 

I’m not looking for a huge amount of flex, mainly a smoother ride  
I’m thinking longer leaf springs are in order. 
What do you think, can a leaf sprung flatty compete with independent suspension??
Let me know what you guys have done for a better ride. 
Thanks 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 4:32am
Since I have no experience with "side by sides" I will ask some questions that will help us answer your question.


1. What is the cruising speed that you need to match?

2. What "payload" is needed: A. Two or four passengers?

                                           B. cargo weight & volume?

3. Does it need to tow a load? Either a trailer, or a choker full of logs? If so how much weight?

IMHO, leaf springs can not compete with any good independent suspension. If you are just driving gravel roads, they can come fairly close. As long as the roads are not too "wash-boarded" that is. 

Longer springs will help with the comfort level, as will less leaves. But there are some compromises that will be made if you go that route. I will let others that have much more knowledge about suspension than I have, address those issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 11:13am
I experimented with a few leaf set ups over the years. What I found:
  • bone stock Wrangler YJ leaf conversion was the best ride
  • used in a springover configuration
  • Rancho adjustable shocks and later Bilstien with some bespoke valving were very good
  • Even more important was adding suspension seats
I had that set up and it worked great. Great but still limited. I don't believe in my wildest dreams it would keep up with a modern SxS. But it outran most Jeeps in the rough stuff. 

I think your biggest challenge is weight distribution. To be fast you need to lighten up the front. Very tough to do and keep the stock config. I would move as much weight as possible to the rear (fuel, spare tire, tools, etc) to try and get a better balance. 

I think the only way to truly compete would be a coil over set up. Coilover straight axles cars give the independent rigs a run for there money every season. I've toyed around with this idea for a long time. I had in mind an 8 or 10 inch shock. Like you not looking for anything super flexy - just capable. four link rear and maybe radius arm front for simplicity. I think you could make that set up really FUN. But seeing as i live nowhere near the desert, the project never got off the ground. But my occasional trips to four wheel out there always get my gears turning! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drm101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 2:18pm
How about make it only rear wheel drive and do a double wish bone front suspension? Like a trophy truck. My neighbor has a sand rail with an ecotech GM turbo 4 banger that will smoke any side by side ever made, but I think the wheel base is longer than a CJ, which I am sure helps with ride quality. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeeper50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 4:17pm
Just remember it is 70 yr old technology. They were never made to perform like one (side by side). Back in the 70s people were driving jeeps as they we're road race cars and found out they can and do roll over when not used.  I would just use it as designed and be happy. 

Belleview ol skool winch soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 5:07pm

Ben,

Take a look at this youtube. If you can come up with a set of these experimental Martin tires or build some - you would be along way towards you goal of side by side performance at speed and not have to modify the Jeep.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 5:40pm
Ben,

Went back and forth with myself on posting this or not, because this is stuff that you already know, and it doesn't really answer your question which I mostly hate when I see it on the forum.

A flat fender is not a SxS even though we joke about it being the original SxS. I even have a sticker like that on my trailer. 

SxS. Rear engine makes for noisy passenger compartment, independent suspension, light weight plastic, but full cage construction, geared and engineered for speed and safety. Makes enormous amounts of dust and makes hero drivers out of people that couldn't pick a correct line in a parking lot at the mall. They are fun, but not the same experience as a flat fender.

Flat fender quietly muffled to the rear from the sweet hum of the Go Devil and its fan in front. Bumping along with the windshield down, quietly enjoying the scenery and the people your are riding with cuz you hear them (low noise) and see them (less dust). Finding your way through the rough terrain using your machines capabilities and your brain and experience. Being a part of living history as you motor along in your steel steed basking in the admiration of all those wanabe's in their $30,000 disposable pieces of plastic. 

I'm sure you can get one of your jeeps to ride a little softer, maybe check out jpet's spring mods to Bam Bam, he floats along pretty softly, or go a little faster with an engine swap and some gear ratio changes, but it will never be close to the SxS experience, and the SxS experience will never be close to the flat fender experience.

I think when your want to hang out with our brother-in-law, put him in one of your jeeps and head for the hills. He won't even have to buy anything. He might have to learn what that 3rd pedal is for though.





Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cpt logger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 5:50pm
Stan, Good answer.

I especially liked the part about the BIL needing to learn how to use the third pedal. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nothing Special Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 6:03pm
Another thing that'll make it impossible to get an old Jeep to run like a side-by-side is unsprung weight.  Even if you have the spring travel of a side-by-side, moving those (relatively) heavy axles up and down that fast is going to throw the Jeep around a lot.  Yes, trophy trucks do it with even heavier axles, but they have HUGE travel so much softer springs, and the truck itself weighs a LOT more than an old Jeep, so the axles aren't as big a percentage of the weight.
 
Not saying you can't make it handle rough roads better than it does.  And on a lot of roads you can probably keep up.  But you'll never make it "like a side-by-side."
 
edit to add:
Tires are another thing to consider.  ATVs use huge tires (width, sidewall height, and often diameter) and low air pressure compared to an old Jeep (and weight needs to be factored in here as well).  Tires are a huge part of the ride of an ATV.  Maybe you can just use ATV tires, but it'll probably take some research to find the best choice here.


Edited by Nothing Special - 28 Sep. 2018 at 6:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dandjeep Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 6:45pm
I'm guessing many of us on this site have left the need for speed back in the dust somewhere. I know I'm very seldom in a hurry to get anywhere these days. And I tell my friends that I'm just old enough that I can have a good time doing just about anything. I love God, family, friends, beer, Jeeps, and football(college). And when I do things I usually start out slow and then taper off. My 47 is just about the right speed for me.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drm101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 6:46pm
Well said, SMFULLE! I especially like quietly sliding down two tracks and fire roads. I put a bolt on roll bar on mine so I don't have wear a helmet when I visit Silver Lake sand dunes, but other than that, mine's stock and will remain that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RICKG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 6:57pm
That dang Ben.. always stirrin up trouble..LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SE Kansas 46 CJ-2A Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by smfulle smfulle wrote:

Ben,

Went back and forth with myself on posting this or not, because this is stuff that you already know, and it doesn't really answer your question which I mostly hate when I see it on the forum.

A flat fender is not a SxS even though we joke about it being the original SxS. I even have a sticker like that on my trailer. 

SxS. Rear engine makes for noisy passenger compartment, independent suspension, light weight plastic, but full cage construction, geared and engineered for speed and safety. Makes enormous amounts of dust and makes hero drivers out of people that couldn't pick a correct line in a parking lot at the mall. They are fun, but not the same experience as a flat fender.

Flat fender quietly muffled to the rear from the sweet hum of the Go Devil and its fan in front. Bumping along with the windshield down, quietly enjoying the scenery and the people your are riding with cuz you hear them (low noise) and see them (less dust). Finding your way through the rough terrain using your machines capabilities and your brain and experience. Being a part of living history as you motor along in your steel steed basking in the admiration of all those wanabe's in their $30,000 disposable pieces of plastic. 

I'm sure you can get one of your jeeps to ride a little softer, maybe check out jpet's spring mods to Bam Bam, he floats along pretty softly, or go a little faster with an engine swap and some gear ratio changes, but it will never be close to the SxS experience, and the SxS experience will never be close to the flat fender experience.

I think when your want to hang out with our brother-in-law, put him in one of your jeeps and head for the hills. He won't even have to buy anything. He might have to learn what that 3rd pedal is for though.





X2...well said, Stan
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nofender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Sep. 2018 at 8:52pm
I love the speed.....

But to get there, as others point out, you do leave the flavor of a flatfender behind to a large extent. It's what happened to me. After 20+ years of mods - yep I can finally go fast. In fact it's more vehicle than I as a driver can get out of it. But I missed the flatfender experience. So I  spent the last two years building a stock-ish Jeep and I love it. 

But boy I love pushing to the ton across the desert. Haven't hit it yet and likely never will. But 80+ MPH across the lake bed is not something I will ever forget. Just thinking about it gives me chills! 

Build two! LOL! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flatfender Ben Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep. 2018 at 12:37am
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and Ideas. 
 I have been reading about Bam Bams longer springs. 
And like the idea of suspension seats. 
I will always have a FlatFender Jeep or twoWink with a 4 cyl and the windshield folded down to putter along in a dry wash, which is my favorite thing to do. Clap
 But I would also like to be able to go on runs were guys have side-by-side‘s and not beat myself and my jeep to death by the end of the day. 
 I didn’t think I’d ever say it, but I want a flat fender with a V6 or small V-8,power steering, better transmission,better suspension.

I NEED Another one Shocked
Just like my 3b is my winter Jeep with a hard top and heater. 
I NEED a side by chaser. Another tool for certain jobs. 

Not that I can spend the money right now, but my thoughts are if a sxs costs around $20,000 
How good of a flatfender can be built for the same amount?
1946 cj2a desert dog
1946 cj2a bulldog
1948 cj2a blue jeep
1953 cj3b yard dog
1955 willys wagon
1955 willys pickup
1956 willys pickup boomer
1960 fc 170
1968 jeepster commando
1990 Grand wagoneer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Unkamonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep. 2018 at 12:39am
Yes, you can have too much motor in a Jeep. I am perfectly content with the 225s in my jeeps. I know that either will do over 85 MPH. Still too fast. I did a 198 V6 in our MB. I did have to change the entire drive train. I was driving down to Denver one Friday night and had to pass a car on the highway. He had to pass me. I passed him again, he passed me again. I was getting tired of the BS so I just floored it. I never saw that car again but I kept my foot in it for a few minutes. I finally looked down at my speedometer. No idea about my speed. The needle was pinned at the post at 0.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jeeper50 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Sep. 2018 at 1:02am
Ben
 The ECJ5 forum is addressing the idea also, just morphing a ROXOR/jeep together




Belleview ol skool winch soon.
'48 CJ2A 283 V8 sm 420 granny low, tera low D18, overdrive,lockers

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 48CJ2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct. 2018 at 11:07pm
I see a few Samurai-transplanted parts onto our CJ's. If you had the cash you could buy this:
48 on Portland Craigslist

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