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T90c build

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Rick R View Drop Down
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    Posted: 19 July 2017 at 12:09am
I'm starting to gather parts to build a t90c transmission. I have what I thought was a suitable case for the build but upon further inspection I discovered circular grooves where the front thrust plate bears on the case. It appears the locating tab on the thrust plate either wore or broke off allowing the plate to rotate on the cast boss. There is still a good groove in the housing to keep a new thrust washer from rotating, but now I wonder if I should be using the case or find a different doner.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wheelie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2017 at 7:05pm
Kind of hard to tell but, it appears that a significant amount of material has been worn away from the case. Could affect end play if if it's too worn, maybe. But, I'm not a pro trans rebuilder guy. Maybe another member could measure a good case, between this surface and the back of the case to determine if yours is excessively worn. 

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2017 at 9:08pm
yup, probably best if I dig through the spare parts pile and try to find a better candidate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cdn2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2017 at 10:42pm
I believe this thrust face is for the cluster.

If you look at the rebuild manual, (pg 10) the cluster requires .012-.018 of end play.
There used to be 2 different sized thrust washers for this. I'd get the thicker one, install, and
test, before calling it quits on your old housing.

https://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/transmissions/rebuild/t90-rebuild/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2017 at 11:46pm
I haven't totally given up on this case but I have found another I will clean and inspect and use the best one. There does appear to be quite a bit of original surface left. I plan on using an internal micrometer to measure inside face to face then make a decision. Thought about mixing up some JB Weld and fill the grooves then strike off flush with original surface. Hopefully this other case will be better suited.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 July 2017 at 11:48pm
Also I can't seem to find any place that carries different thickness cluster gear thrust washers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cdn2a Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2017 at 3:59pm
Like the link says, the thick one is avail, assemble, measure, and "lap" (sand) the thick one down till spec is made...

*edit*
This surface it behind the thrust surface, as long as the tang is set, and the washer doesnt spin, the surface finish isnt super important. One assembler, on the T84's uses krazy glue, IMO better than grease, which would encourage spinning.

Right at the start of the vid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjtch2W_IZ8



Edited by cdn2a - 21 July 2017 at 4:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2017 at 5:24pm
thanks for that link Canada2A. I'll give that technique a try. 
I did read in the Novak T90 rebuild instructions that only the thick thrust washer is available so that is what I'll be receiving when I order the master rebuild kit.
I have another puzzler, when I was going through transmission parts I came across this rear bearing adapter. It completely houses the rear bearing unlike the normal plate I'm familiar with. Does anyone know what application this fits.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2017 at 5:40pm
No don't fill in those gouges with JB weld. 
If the JB comes loose you'll have that junk in your gear oil.
If excessively worn the thrust end  could be built up with brass rod and re-machined to spec.

FYI Technically the T90 C used a different case than the T90 A.
The difference is that T90 C holes were never tapped to bolt in the maindrive gear oil collector.
T90-C does not use the Oil collector.
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2017 at 5:49pm
good advice oldtime, I'll take it. I haven't got my other case totally cleaned yet but it appears to be a much better candidate. I am aware that the Novak rebuild kit comes with a sealed front bearing and I won't be reinstalling the oil collector
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2017 at 5:52pm
Yes, sealed maindrive is good.
The oil collector does not fit the smaller T90 C maindrive gear anyway
Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smfulle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2017 at 8:06pm
That bearing adapter mates up with the later "big hole" D18. The big hole D18 is the one you need if you ever want to put Tera Low gears in your transfer case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2017 at 8:19pm
Ah ha! Thanks for the information Stan. I've got a transfer case with an 1-1/4" intermediate shaft that I'll pair with the T90C I'm building. It doesn't have the big hole but I don't plan on any lower gearing than the transmission will provide. Oilleaker said I would for sure need an overdrive with lower transmission gearing so I'll be bugeting for that too. Hopefully before the next Black Hills run. I enjoyed watching you and jpet running the creek beds there and was saddened by your accident. Glad you are making progress on grandpa's jeep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LesBerg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2017 at 3:01am
Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

No don't fill in those gouges with JB weld. 
If the JB comes loose you'll have that junk in your gear oil.
If excessively worn the thrust end  could be built up with brass rod and re-machined to spec.

FYI Technically the T90 C used a different case than the T90 A.
The difference is that T90 C holes were never tapped to bolt in the maindrive gear oil collector.
T90-C does not use the Oil collector.


I was just going to ask if this was something that could be fixed similar to spot-facing a lifter bore. Could it be machined flat and double-up the thrust washer? Or is it even worth the expense?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick R Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2017 at 4:07am
Originally posted by LesBerg LesBerg wrote:

Originally posted by oldtime oldtime wrote:

No don't fill in those gouges with JB weld. 
If the JB comes loose you'll have that junk in your gear oil.
If excessively worn the thrust end  could be built up with brass rod and re-machined to spec.

FYI Technically the T90 C used a different case than the T90 A.
The difference is that T90 C holes were never tapped to bolt in the maindrive gear oil collector.
T90-C does not use the Oil collector.


I was just going to ask if this was something that could be fixed similar to spot-facing a lifter bore. Could it be machined flat and double-up the thrust washer? Or is it even worth the expense?

Les
In my situation definately not worth the expense as I have a number of t90 cases to choose from. I did some preliminary measuring on two different cases with a caliper and the one with grooves is approximately as thick outside machined face to inside machined face, so aside from the grooves  it appears stock dimensions still hold. I will be doing more precise measurements in the next few days. I think oldtimes tip on using super glue to fix the thrust bearing to the case has merit and I may use that technique on the grooved case if I decide to build a spare standard transmission.
Thanks to all who weighed in on this thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 64CJ5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2017 at 5:39am
When putting the T90 A from my M38 to gather, I put in the gears to make it a T90 C.  The oil collector that I had taken out went back in.  Will it be a problem?  I could take the transmission out to remove the oil collector, but I would rather not haft to.     
I used the Novak rebuild kit and it did not mention not using the oil collector.


Edited by 64CJ5 - 22 July 2017 at 5:48am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2017 at 4:30pm
Quote I was just going to ask if this was something that could be fixed similar to spot-facing a lifter bore. Could it be machined flat and double-up the thrust washer? Or is it even worth the expense?
Yes it could certainly be machined down more if using a custom thickness of thrust washer.
I have seen the similar castings before but none with quite so much gouging. 
Even if the overall casting dimensions have not been compromised; then one should consider that the excess gouging may created high spots or may  have effected the squareness.

Superglue to hold thrust washer in place ?
Never heard that before so not my suggestion .
I use a precision length dummy shaft when installing the countershaft gear assembly.
My dummy shaft is the exact length of the ountershaft gear plus the thrust washer.
Stick the thrust washer to the loaded countershaft gear assembly using assembly lube.

Quote The oil collector that I had taken out went back in.  Will it be a problem?
Never tried that. I actually did not think it would fit in. Yet I suppose it might.

The T90-C (16 tooth) maindrive is smaller in diameter than the T90-A (18 tooth) mnaindrive.
No problem with maindrive gear clearance.
Be concerned with it clearing the driven gear of the countershaft cluster.
So long as the oil collector does not touch (grind) on anything it should be O.K. to leave it as is. 
Simply put ....
You need be sure that the oil collector does not hit the larger driven gear meaning the T90-C countershaft gear.
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T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963)
Zero aftermarket parts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 64CJ5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 July 2017 at 5:13pm
Thanks Oldtime.  I have not worked on the M38 for three weeks.  Two weeks in OK and this last week working on pluming problems in the house and seeing the VA Dr.. 
This next week I plan on some real progress on the M38.
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