The Narrow Track Dana 30 |
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4131 |
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Posted: 23 Apr. 2018 at 5:26pm |
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Personally I think the Dana model 25 can be a great little front axle. Especially for light weight jeeps having Willys 134 engines. But this post is all about the next logical upgrade toward replacing the standard front axle Specifically about the 1972-1981 Jeep Narrow Track Dana 30 axles. Post 1981 CJ's have wide track axles. Here you see a rebuilt Narrow Track D30. This one has a Spicer Powr Lok differential and an OEM NIOS 4.88 gear set.(39-8) The 1972-1975 CJ's were equipped with 3.73 as standard and 4.27 ratio was optional. The 1976-1981 CJ's were equipped with 3.54 as standard. Spicer only made 4.88 and higher gear sets for the D30. But even lower 5.38 gears are available from aftermarket manufactures.. Note how the this early (pre 1976) NT D30 does not have the axle bumper casting included as part of the carrier section. If one locates a 1976-1981 NT D30, the large casting excess could be removed. I don't have any pics of the post 1975 D30 carrier..... Anyone ? The D30 has a nice thick front cover. Shear strength mainly comes from increasing the shaft diameters. Standard D30 have 27 spline axle shafts. Cromoly axle shaft on left and standard axle shaft on right. Chromoly shafts have larger universal joints and the shaft diameter is increased between the splined areas. It should be obvious that shaft strength is greatly increased by the fine grain structure of chromolybedenum steel. Larger trunions on chromoly axle shafts slightly reduces the potential steering angle. The standard shaft joint is a fairly close fit into the steering knuckle. Because the chromoly shafts are larger I.had to do a little grinding on the outer chromo joints to fit them through the knuckles. D25. Rzeppa joint compared to a standard D30 joint. Rzeppa is the heaviest and strongest of all the D25 joints The shaft diameter plays a far greater role concerning actual strength than the spline count. Dana 23-2 rear Dana 25 front and Dana 27 front all have 10 straight milled spline axle shafts. They measure 1.031 diameter. Dana 30 front has 27 rolled spline axle shafts. They measure 1.1625 outside diameter. D25 Rzeppa weighs 20 pounds D30 std joint weighs 22 D30 chromo weighs 25.5 pounds Came across a pair of factory D30 axle shims 5* Yes the wedge is slightly curved from use. Pair of NOS Selectro hubs @ 27 spline. Edited by oldtime - 25 Apr. 2018 at 12:21am |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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wheelie
Member Sponsor Member Joined: 25 Jan. 2011 Location: red lion. pa Status: Offline Points: 814 |
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Nice writeup so far Ken. Thank you. I'll be following along (assuming there will be more).
Where'd you get those axle shafts? Where did you grind to get them through the knuckle? I guess grinding out the knuckle, to get the shaft through, would be a bad idea.
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JeepFever
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I can take a photo of D30 that came out of '80 CJ-7 . . I never thought about cutting the big lug off, but that could save some weight, I doubt I would ever fab a bump-stop on frame to use it. edit: adding the photo I forgot to take photo before installing in frame, but this angle does show the top of the axle bumper section
I have two D30 axles, one from '74 and the '80. I was surprised at the difference in axle shaft sizes when I had all of them removed. The '74 inner shafts are approx. 1.06 od, the '80 inner shafts are 1.25 (necked down to approx. 1.19 near the u-joint) . . all the outer shafts are approx. 1.06" Edited by JeepFever - 02 May 2018 at 7:35pm |
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Rick G
Member Joined: 17 May 2015 Location: Amarillo, TX Status: Offline Points: 1467 |
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Ken, this is the exact upgrade I’m doing for my D25 this summer. I run 34” tires and lockers and I’ve broken two D25 long-side axles in the last 6 months. I’ll preface the following with the fact I don’t have any experience with either the D30 or D44, so take what I say, for what’s it’s worth. I’m really leaning towards the super 30 axles, however (30 spline). The diameter of the super 30 is 1.31” as I understand it, which is the diameter of D44 axles. The narrow track upgrade with super 30 axles gives one the strength of a D44 axle upgrade without having to shorten the tube and inner axle. The difference in strength then is the size of the R&P. I’m going to bank on the idea that a Willys driveshaft ujoint will give way before the R&P will.
And, if you really want some strong axles, then go with the RCV axles. I saw them in Moab at the vendor show. They impressed me in terms of quality and strength. Pricey, but I’ll hazard a guess you won’t ever break a set with your stock Willys equipment.
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jpet
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...... this is just an opinion based on limited experience so take it FWIW. I have broken 3 axle shafts in a D30. Two stock axles, and one chromoly. The first thought is to go stronger when it breaks but, I'm not so sure. In my experience, the weak link in a stock D30 axle is the u-joint. In fact, I don't think the u-joint area in a D30 is as strong as a Rzeppa joint just by looking at the design. The Rzeppa has a birfield joint design like an RCV axle. It is actually a better joint than a D30 u-joint, IMO. The advantage of the D30 are in the larger 27 spline shaft where a D25 has a smaller shaft and spline count.... The second advantage to a D30 (and this is my point), is that since the weak link is at the joint, it is WAY easier to fix when it breaks. The u-joint is like a fuse if you will. Better to break an external u-joint than an internal shaft or spline..... Both times when I broke a stock D30 axle, it was at the u-joint. Both times I bent the yoke, but the shafts were repairable and usable, at least temporarily. The chromoly axles have a larger u-joint that is much stronger. One would think that is a good thing but when mine broke, the outer shaft shattered and did a variety of damage. Of course, the axle was unusable. I'd hate to try to get a chromoly axle out if it broke at the u-joint!! The yoke would likely shatter and possibly grenade the knuckle. Not speaking from experience. Just speculating. I personally think a guy would be just fine with the stock D30 axles so long as he uses his head, (I'm learning), I personally, would ether stay with stock axles, or else swing for the fences and get an RCV axle that will not break and is even designed to allow for some twist in the axle. Just know that if you are in a bind, you better stop and take a tug. If the axle is too strong to break, what's next? R&P? again, MHO. Edited by jpet - 24 Apr. 2018 at 4:09pm |
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CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM" "We do what we can, and we try what we can't" |
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4131 |
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Dave,
Not sure I have a lot more info to add. Maybe some.
I thought I'd get this topic started after RickG mentioned something the other day. I have 3 pre 1976 Dana 30's in my garage but presently I'm building on my last D25 including all the D25 goodies. One thing you'll notice is that unlike original factory shafts our D30 axle shafts have been painted. The D30 shafts are exposed to the elements all the way to the carrier seals. I also blasted and painted up inside my D30 axle tubes. JeepFever, That's right, I just don't see any real use for the excess casting when its installed onto a flatty jeep. Yeah RickG I read about you breaking that front shaft on your Easter Moab trip. What a downer that can be. We'll just blame it on those those 34" Narrow Super Swampers. Otherwise I think the D25 is a pretty darn good axle for a 134 Willys. Honestly I'm not familiar with 30 spline shaft conversions but absolutely, "YES" increasing the shaft diameter is where it's at. Also the chrome-molybdenum steel happens to have much tighter grain structure yielding a nice increase for shear strength. Like Jeffs pic shows my axle shafts were all painted up nice and pretty. I had to grind on mine where the paint rubbed off after trying to force them through the knuckle hole. [quote] (pillow blocks or whatever you call them) {quote) I'd call them Cardan Cross Yokes As Jeff indicates the Rzeppa has a few other real advantages over the typical Cardan cross designs. Beyond strength it's a constant velocity design which provides for decreased vibrations when rotating at an angle.. The single Cardan cross is not considered to be constant velocity design. Also the Rzeppa will allow for 29* of operating angle while Cardan crosses will allow for 27-1/2*. FWIW the constant velocity Bendix joint only allows for 23* Jeff, I'm of the opinion that the weak front axle link ideally would be the drive flange bolts. Maybe install "grade 2" drive flange bolts ??? |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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jpet
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CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM" "We do what we can, and we try what we can't" |
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4131 |
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So Rick,
I rechecked some axle shaft diameters. Basically I measured these shafts where they are at there smallest diameter and more likely to break. The D25 Rzeppa measures 1.03125. or 1-1/32 (Same as the median spline diameter ) The D30 Spicer measures 1.0625 or 1-1/16 (Same as outermost spline diameter) So 1/32" is not really a big difference between those two shaft sizes. I also measures a Dane 44 rear with 30 spline flanged axle shafts. On this one I measured at the smallest diameter 1.240 (same as innermost spline diameter) The spline OD was 1.275. So a pretty large increase in shaft diameter is noted. Plus the D44 taper shafts get much larger toward the outboard ends. I am certain that spindle selection can limit the size shafts you can insert. At least two different spindle ID's were available for D25's. I put the thicker walled spindles on my latest D25. I believe I have 4 sets of D30 spindles. And yes there are at least two sizes of them also. I could measure the D30 spindle ID's if you like. I'm thinking if you had to bore a spindle out in order to insert a larger shaft diameter then that may become a problem. Because of your tire diameter I expect a D30 should notably improve your steering more than anything else. |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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Rick G
Member Joined: 17 May 2015 Location: Amarillo, TX Status: Offline Points: 1467 |
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I hadn’t given much thought to the possibility of having to alter spindles, largely in part, due to the fact that I have no experience with the D30. I am now even more curious about the super 30 axles and the spindle bore issue. My GUESS is that the super 30 outer shaft isn’t different from the chromoly outer shaft dimension, but I surely don’t know. I’ll have to research this. My guess is based on the assumption: How many times has an outer shaft broken before the inner? I’m again guessing that the inner (or the ujoint) shaft breaks long before the outer shaft does.
Yes, Ken, if you don’t mind, I would be very interested to know the difference in spindle bores. The question is then, are these differences due only to shaft dimension or does it have to do with the year models where Jeep went from the 6 bolt hub to the 5 bolt hub? For my future D30 build, I will build with the 6 bolt hub, disc brakes, and driving flanges.
Did the outer shaft break or did the outer yoke break?
Edited by Rick G - 25 Apr. 2018 at 4:02am |
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jpet
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The shaft broke: ... but it didn't just break cleanly like yours, it shattered. The pieces ended up egging my spindle. Had I known it broke I might have been able to immediately stop and remove it but that is not always possible off-road. This is what makes me nervous about chromoly. Edit: These were Alloy shafts. |
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CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM" "We do what we can, and we try what we can't" |
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4131 |
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Jeff, that looks like an older original outer shaft.
You saying it's chromoly ??? One would think that you'd know when that bad boy snapped. Rick, I already forgot those spindle ID numbers. Will have to post them later. Maybe I'll should get a couple more pics while I'm at it |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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jpet
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Building a Universal Modified (Page 42) --------------------------------------------------------- Here is one of the stock ones I broke: Broke at the u-joint. It did distort the yoke, but it didn't shatter. I had another axle but if push came to shove, I could have bent it back and used it with a new u-joint (at least temporarily).... The other stock one that I broke came apart in the same manner and in fact, we did bend it back, put a new u-joint in it and use it. I still have it as a spare. I don't doubt that chromoly is less likely to break, but I do believe that when they do break, they will do more damage than a stock shaft. Having a shaft break is more likely to send a shock wave through your pumpkin ... so my thinking is: 1. No chance of breaking (RCV) 2. Breaks at an open knuckle u-joint that can be pulled back through the knuckle when it blows. (Stock axle) Just something to consider.... Compromises,.... Right Bob? Edited by jpet - 25 Apr. 2018 at 4:52pm |
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CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM" "We do what we can, and we try what we can't" |
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otto
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What is the overall width of the narrow track Dana 30? How much wider is it over the Dana 25?
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47 CJ2A w/fuel injected boat engine
48 CJ2A 64 Ford Econoline Travelwagon If you can't get there in a Jeep, get a motorcycle! |
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flatfender47
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Approximately 3" overall width or, 1.5" wider on each side.
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1947 CJ2A 225V6 SM420 D30 PLok/D44 D/Locker Warn OD 5:38s
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berettajeep
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53 inches for the narrow Dana 30. 56 for the later CJ Dana 30's. |
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Bob W
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4131 |
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Wow Jeff take her easy.
Try a set of cheasy grade 2 drive flange bolts and let us know if that does any good. But then again with your luck the sheared off bolts might get stuck up inside the hub. Rick, Here you see two different original shafts . No the thick one is not chromoly. The early OEM shafts roughly (pre 1976 ?) were thinner than those found in later D30 axles. Here you see the difference between D25 (same as D27 spindles) and the D30 spindles. The ID on my thinnest D25 spindles is 1.175". My thicker (smaller ID) D25 spindles (not shown) are on my Jeep right now. Those particular thick spindles came from a 1951 M38. They have something like a .020 smaller ID and will not fit over 19 spline D44 full float rear axle shafts. Here's a side view of a D25 and a couple of D30 spindles. The I.D. on all of my D30 spindles ranged from 1.180 to 1.185" You can see from these numbers that D30 spindles allow slightly more room for the shaft than a D25 spindle. Here you see the two types of D30 spindles compared. The one on your left is for use with drum brakes. The one with thick step shoulders is for use with disk brakes. The D30 drum spindle uses same hub seals as a D27 axle (not same as a D25) The D30 disk spindle uses special extra large inner hub seal and extra large inner bearing. GROUP 25-03 52942------------D25 front wheel cone------------------------------------1859052943------------D25 front wheel cup--------------------------------------18520 925446----------D27 / D30 front wheel cone-----------------------------LM 501349 925447----------D27 / D30 front wheel cup-------------------------------LM 501310 xxxxxxx--------D30 front wheel inner cone (disk brakes only----LM 102949 xxxxxxx--------D30 front wheel inner cup (disk brakes only)-----LM 102910 Edited by oldtime - 26 Apr. 2018 at 1:18am |
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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oldtime
Member Joined: 12 Sep. 2009 Location: Missouri Status: Offline Points: 4131 |
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Rick,
So anyway the bottom line is that the 27 spline shaft (1.1625") is about all that one can ever stuff through the D30 spindles (1.180") Boring out the spindle I.D. any further might become a disaster. So I'm thinking that the only option for installing larger diameter shafts into a D30 would be done by converting over to some sort of unit bearing / hub assembly. For me that's certainly going beyond my self imposed "old school" limitation.
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Currently building my final F-134 powered 3B .
T98-A Rock Crawler using exclusive factory parts and Approved Special Equipment from the Willys Motors era (1953-1963) Zero aftermarket parts |
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