Forum Home Forum Home > CJ-2A Discussion Area > Your Jeep Project
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - The Resurrection of CJ2-26
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

The Resurrection of CJ2-26

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 56789 10>
Author
Message
rocnroll View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Sponsor Member

Joined: 20 July 2005
Location: Tuscumbia, AL
Status: Offline
Points: 10414
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Mar. 2017 at 8:08pm
How close are the dimensions to the bronze plaques as a die?



'47 CJ2A PU
'48 CJ2A Lefty

"Common sense is not that common"
Back to Top
Fred Coldwell View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 18 Nov. 2005
Location: Denver, CO.
Status: Offline
Points: 243
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Coldwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 10:27am
Body Off!

A big step occurred this past weekend when we finally removed the body from the chassis. A two piece JEEP, yea! 



Now I have clear access to the drive train and chassis controls, which I can begin removing.  The T90A  transmission and transfer case have been underwater during the spring floods in Texas and so are locked up solid.  I have a much better T90A tranny/tc combo I will rebuild and use, so this hunk of rusty iron will be removed and disassembled for salvageable parts. Then the drag link, steering column, pedals, master cylinder and brakes lines will be removed, followed later by the axles & springs, etc., until we get down to the bare frame. That will be sand blasted. repaired, primed and painted, to become the foundation for the rebuild. Smile

The bottom of the body has been stripped of its electrical wiring, clips and the few extra bolts added over the years.  It is ready to go the sand blaster this week before any further repairs are made.



As expected, all the hat channels on the body will have to be replaced, but the rusty ones now there will be carefully removed to serve as patterns. Sections of the front floor will be cut out and replaced and the rear floor and rear fender tops will be bumped straight and repaired. Now the division of labor is complete: Lou will do the body and paint work while I rebuild the chassis.  With Spring officially here and days warmer and longer, the pace of progress will accelerate. Forward Ho! 
 


Happy Jeep Trails,


Fred Coldwell
Denver, CO
1944 CJ2-09 - X-33
1945 CJ2-26 - X-50
1946 CJ2A-12797

Back to Top
jpet View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Sponsor Member x 4

Joined: 29 Apr. 2008
Location: Ramsey, IL
Status: Offline
Points: 7834
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 10:47am
After further analysis, I don't believe the "E" was made with a ball endmill.  The end of the tines have a sloping radius or "scoop" look.  Here is a sectional view:

This can be done with a cutter such as this:


A 3/16" radius and is 3/4" in diameter could cut the tines, then plunge deeper and cut the vertical pillar and would make this "E" with minimal hand working.




... I don't think such a cutter can be purchased unless it is made custom I will make a fly cutter to do this:


Edited by jpet - 20 Mar. 2017 at 10:49am
CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM"
MB #295645
MB #434416

My Videos
Back to Top
jpet View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Sponsor Member x 4

Joined: 29 Apr. 2008
Location: Ramsey, IL
Status: Offline
Points: 7834
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 11:06am
Originally posted by Todd Paisley Todd Paisley wrote:

....Or maybe 3D print the die: ....


Notice the vertical pillar in these two "E"s.  The one to the left has an arch of approximately 3/8" but is actually teardrop shaped slightly.  The one to the right is almost flat on top.  They are slightly deeper from top to bottom.  Also, notice how crisp the edges are in both molds.  It is particularly obvious in the female half.

This is your scan:


notice how all of the edges are rounded; not near as crisp as Fred's.

...my point is, if you create a die from the 3D scan, neither one of the "E"s will match, and your "E"s wont match Fred's "E"s, which won't match the "E"s on the hood.... which probably don't match the "E"s on the original tail gate.  Is this what we are going for?  This is why I try to figure out what the engineer's intent was.  
CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM"
MB #295645
MB #434416

My Videos
Back to Top
rocnroll View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Sponsor Member

Joined: 20 July 2005
Location: Tuscumbia, AL
Status: Offline
Points: 10414
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 3:33pm
So if the bronze plaque was reproduced and used as a die would it produce somethjing close?



'47 CJ2A PU
'48 CJ2A Lefty

"Common sense is not that common"
Back to Top
Joe Friday View Drop Down
Member
Member

Sponsor Member x 2

Joined: 26 Dec. 2010
Location: NE Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 1896
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Joe Friday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 4:00pm
The letters in the bronze plaque are squared off, unlike the stamping.
Back to Top
PapaC View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep. 2013
Location: Ms
Status: Offline
Points: 166
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PapaC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 5:38pm
Quick test



Inside impression




Outside impression
[URL=http://s924.photobucket.com/user/ctate1957/media/IMG_8131_zpsw7tczfwo.jpg.html[/URL]

Used a small mm socket rather than make something presice (as would be needed)

Sheet metal is front of old electrical box

Press is a blacksmith vise, a welding glove as a backer (not really sufficient) and a hammer to tighten and hit it with (not ever recommended) (guessing a real press would have been much better)

Test time spent appx 15 min

So for me I imaging blacksmith made letters out of rod or flat steel made much like a branding iron, forged or filed down for inside contours and curves the proper backing and press, and then final clean-up and hand work for chrisping the letters up
Back to Top
Todd Paisley View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 Nov. 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Status: Offline
Points: 124
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 6:11pm
Hi Jeff.  I would imagine that the die was used for all 3 panels.  But the height of the letter would be different for each one since the metal thickness is different.  I wouldn't think they would create 3 different dies.  The height of the letters could be normal wear and tear as well.  That could also explain the height difference of the letters.  I would try to make them uniform like Fred's.  It also could be if they used a cheap die to make the letters, by the time they got to CJ2-37, it may have been worn!  Who knows!  It has to be one of those reasons.
I like your test.  I was thinking something along these lines.  How crisp was the front transition from the flat to the letter itself?  If you click on that one video where they used a press for hydroforming, they used a piece of rubber for the other side.  Maybe instead of a welding glove, find a piece of rubber.
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
Back to Top
Todd Paisley View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 Nov. 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Status: Offline
Points: 124
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 6:16pm
Fred:  Awesome!  Are you going to try and save the front floor and just put in the metal you need?
Is that the original transmission?  What is the casting date?  If the case itself is good, maybe swap out the internals with a good one?
 
Todd.
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
Back to Top
PapaC View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 Sep. 2013
Location: Ms
Status: Offline
Points: 166
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PapaC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by Todd Paisley Todd Paisley wrote:

  How crisp was the front transition from the flat to the letter itself?  If you click on that one video where they used a press for hydroforming, they used a piece of rubber for the other side.  Maybe instead of a welding glove, find a piece of rubber.


Crisper than I thought it would have been but I also knew the leather glove wasn't going to be stiff enough for a backing.

With this SLOPPY test I can see where some careful chisel work around the edges of the stamped piece would greatly improve edges of letters to something acceptable

The backing materials used in the videos would likely produce much better (crisper) results.

IF the letters were blacksmith made, some welding would be acceptable if filed correctly)

I can almost imagine the metal in the J could have been drawn out narrower before forming the curve and then by leaving it wider at the very end of the hook

Suposidely somewhere there's a article in a old hot rod magazine about using a ford Script made of bondo and newspapers as backing to form a one time impression for a tailgate. I only found a vague reference to it and pretty much know that wouldn't work on thicker steel.

Back to Top
rocnroll View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar
Sponsor Member

Joined: 20 July 2005
Location: Tuscumbia, AL
Status: Offline
Points: 10414
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocnroll Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by Joe Friday Joe Friday wrote:

The letters in the bronze plaque are squared off, unlike the stamping.


But if they were pressing into a piece of metal the letters would end up more rounded, right?

Was just a thought....I'll leave it to you experts.



'47 CJ2A PU
'48 CJ2A Lefty

"Common sense is not that common"
Back to Top
Todd Paisley View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 Nov. 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Status: Offline
Points: 124
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 8:57pm
If you used the brass tag, the letters would be too thick after the "rounding".  It really needs to be something like Jeff stated (which would be thinner).
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
Back to Top
Fred Coldwell View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 18 Nov. 2005
Location: Denver, CO.
Status: Offline
Points: 243
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Coldwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar. 2017 at 9:43pm
Originally posted by Todd Paisley Todd Paisley wrote:

Fred:  Awesome!  Are you going to try and save the front floor and just put in the metal you need?  Is that the original transmission?  What is the casting date?  If the case itself is good, maybe swap out the internals with a good one?  Todd.

Hi Todd:

We haven't made a decision yet on how much of the front floor to replace.  We'll look closer at it after the body tub comes back from the sand blaster and we have removed the hat channels.  It's pretty thin in spots, and often is wholly missing above the hat channels.   

Unfortunately that's not the original transmission. The casting date is 10-3-45:



and the well-beaten skid plate has the 4 holes for attaching the rear propeller shaft guard, so the transmission assembly is a production CJ-2A part.  In addition, the stamping on the T90-A small top pad at the right rear corner is "D1946", which may indicate an April 1946 assembly date (but I'm not sure of that interpretation).  I still wonder if the T90A was replaced before or after CJ2-26 was sold by Willys-Overland after testing was completed?

However, the rear axle with its stamped assembly date of 11-8-44 is original to CJ2-26, and on a quick peek the ring and pinon look good enough to reuse.  Smile 

[Edited 3-21-17 to add stamping on transmission top pad].    


Edited by Fred Coldwell - 21 Mar. 2017 at 9:26pm
Happy Jeep Trails,


Fred Coldwell
Denver, CO
1944 CJ2-09 - X-33
1945 CJ2-26 - X-50
1946 CJ2A-12797

Back to Top
jpet View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar
Sponsor Member x 4

Joined: 29 Apr. 2008
Location: Ramsey, IL
Status: Offline
Points: 7834
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2017 at 7:36pm
Did a little experimenting today.

First, I hogged out the bulk of the material with ball endmills:





..... then, I made a fly cutter radius tool as I described in my previous posts:





This is just a test so I decided to try the die out before I start breaking all the edges and radii:



I used a few different pieces of round stock to push the metal into the die. This is 16 gauge steel.

..... and .....





...... now, cut me some slack Todd, this is just a first run. I know this isn't correct just yet. .

Once I get one of these "E"s to press out good, I'll use what I've learned to design the more complicated "J" and "P". Then I'll remake the entire mold in the CNC where I can do some interpolation for the more complicated characters.

Even though this "E" is not perfect yet, It is quite similar to the "E" in Fred's sample. I also wanted to demonstrate that this stamping can be done using the techniques I've described.   Once all the letters press out correctly, I'll work on the other half of the die but the female part is the most critical.


CJ2A #29110 "General Willys"
MB #204827 "BAM BAM"
MB #295645
MB #434416

My Videos
Back to Top
Fred Coldwell View Drop Down
Member
Member


Joined: 18 Nov. 2005
Location: Denver, CO.
Status: Offline
Points: 243
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fred Coldwell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2017 at 7:43pm
Originally posted by jpet jpet wrote:

Did a little experimenting today.

E E E E E E E xcellent!! TongueTongue
Happy Jeep Trails,


Fred Coldwell
Denver, CO
1944 CJ2-09 - X-33
1945 CJ2-26 - X-50
1946 CJ2A-12797

Back to Top
Rick G View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 2015
Location: Amarillo, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 381
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rick G Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2017 at 8:16pm
Wow, Jeff. If you could just find a job that would give you a little free time and proper tools you could
really begin to develop your fundamental skill set. It's too bad that all you have to work with is lazer tomography, CAD drawing analysis, milling machines, hydraulic presses, etc. How's a fella supposed to construct anything with such limitations???     

1947 CJ2a #119929
Back to Top
Lee (MN) View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug. 2008
Location: Harris, MN
Status: Offline
Points: 2605
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lee (MN) Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2017 at 9:41pm
Originally posted by Rick G Rick G wrote:

Wow, Jeff. If you could just find a job that would give you a little free time and proper tools you could
really begin to develop your fundamental skill set. It's too bad that all you have to work with is lazer tomography, CAD drawing analysis, milling machines, hydraulic presses, etc. How's a fella supposed to construct anything with such limitations???     




LOL

Lee
               LEE
44 GPW-The Perfected Willys
49 2A
67 M715
American Made Rolling History
Back to Top
Todd Paisley View Drop Down
Member
Member
Avatar

Joined: 19 Nov. 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Status: Offline
Points: 124
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Todd Paisley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar. 2017 at 11:17pm
Jeff.  It looks like you are a couple thousandths off... ;)
 
 
Looks good!  Nice crisp transitions between the flat plane and the letter itself.  Instead of a fly cut, what if you used a smaller bit to create the depth.  I think that might make the horizontal ends better.


Edited by Todd Paisley - 21 Mar. 2017 at 11:20pm
Todd Paisley

1941 MB-100063 - MB Factory Test Mule
1942 MB-123136 - Earliest Documented "Civilian" Test Jeep
1944 CJ2-12 - X36
1944 CJ2-16 - X40
1945 CJ2-37 - X61
1945 CJ2A
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 56789 10>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.